Do UFOs/ETs exist, are they real?

Well, humans are now tampering with 'natural selection' and are creating GMOs.

Whose to say aliens are not tampering with our evolution, and that of other civilizations, maybe we are their 'project', which would distort what would seem natural selection might avoid.


Who the **** knows?

 

In a court room, someone's liberty is at stake, of course we are not going to rely on hypnosis to put someone away.

But, a book is just about looking at things to influence opinion, and the stakes are not that high, and so ,that is not true with reading a book

Dr. David Jacobs acknowledges wholehearted your objections, that as 'proof' it is weak, but yet, when you read his counter argument, it, too, is compelling. Read "Walking Among Us", just read it. The most compelling fact is the consistency of testimonies of those hypnotized, people who do not know each other, from all walks of life, the same scenarios keep cropping up, over and over and over again. Jacobs talks about separating the wheat from the chaff, his methodology he uses to sort out 'confabulation'. The point is, because of this fact, To formulate a hypothesis, we shouldn't just toss it out, entirely.

All I'm saying is consider reading the book, "Walking Among Us", it's written with skeptics in mind.

 

If you want to play the ‘what if’ and ‘anything is possible game’, what is dinosaurs actually advanced to intelligence and super technology millions of years ago ultimately moving to a stealth environment under Antarctica. Then, at some point their scientist worked out the emerging species the would be one day human would advance to develop weapons of mass construction, so to avoid being found and their civilization destroyed they concocted evidence for their destruction and modified the fossil record to fool us. But, unfortunately they haven’t completely been able to completely manage the advance of humans technology development and emerging ability to detect their stealth technology.
So, back in the 50’s they began a campaign of misinformation regarding the origins of UFO’s to throw us off the scent.
[video][/video]
Totally possible. Prove me wrong.

 

For once can we discuss something on PF in a non-partisan manner without an Orange Man Bad comment?

 

An epistemological question; does he exist or is he media generated conspiracy theory?
Isn’t he Q? ... I get easily confused.

 

No. Only when trump is long gone, his movement is dead and fully discredited, will you hear the last of it and not a moment before.

I was responding to a question from FreshAir. Don't be so delicate.

 

What, no less than 6 'yes aliens exist' options in your survey (you left out anal probing BTW) and only 1 'no they don't' option? Hoping to skew the results much were we?

 

They haven't been though. None of the possible explanations described in the Wikipedia article can be entirely dismissed as possibilities (including, but not exclusively, aliens).

I'm not trying to take aliens off the list, I am only saying that there still is a list. You've asserted that there is "overwhelming evidence" that it is definitely true that aliens travelled to this planet in spacecraft and the government cover up this fact. The only reason you'd present these animal mutilations in that context if you're saying that that is definitely causes by these aliens and is thus part of that evidence. If all you're saying is that it's possibly aliens it is just an irrelevant distraction from the thread.

You're saying aliens have definitively visited, I'm saying aliens might have visited. Identifying something aliens might be responsible for still leans towards my position, not yours.

What about the possibility of human time-travellers? That's essentially just another "neighbour", just in time rather than space, and only requires a similar assumption that there is some means by which that gap could be travelled. My point remains that there is nothing special about your preferred hypothesis.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said anything about it being "fantastic". The problem isn't about that and it isn't about it involving aliens. The problem is that you are making a very specific, very detailed set of assertions and declaring they're definitively proven by "overwhelming evidence". It wouldn't matter what assertions you were making or what field they were in, your claims need much more to back them up than you've been willing or able to present here.

Presumptive evidence is generally only applied in law, because there they have to reach a definitive conclusion one way or another - "maybe guilty" isn't an acceptable conclusion. In science, "maybe" or "we don't know" isn't only acceptable, it's the default position and "presumptive evidence" is never going to lift any hypothesis beyond that. "Maybe" isn't your assertion here though is it?

Another point of view would be that literally everything is unique at some level. I'm totally on board with the idea that alien life almost certainly developed (or will develop) on some other planets at some points in time. I'm not convinced we can legitimately say anything much specific or definitive about them though. Pretty much anything is possible but nothing can be certain.

Unless you do back them up, they're not relevant. And a couple of them seem highly speculative at best and several don't automatically infer extraterrestrial aliens.

I don't (yet) accept it as definitively proven or legitimate as the one and only presumption, and I've made my reasoning for that perfectly clear. Maybe you could ask yourself why you'll only consider this one "fantastic" possibility and dismiss any of the literally infinite alternatives that would also be beyond our "limited perspective".

 

I can't say 'definitely' but it's the best explanation I've seen.
The gov reports I read, it really seems like the regarding alien thing and cattle mutilations, they go out of their way to avoid it, and there's always this line: 'those cannot cannot be explained by natural phenomenon are attributed to cult predatory behavior" and, I swear, they FORGOT to mention that there ARE NO TRACKS footprints, any sign of struggle, it's as if they avoid the idea so rigorously I'm convinced that if a real alien banged on their door and bit them in the ass they would still ignore it, and, as such, I don't trust gov reports in this regard. If you read Professor Hynek's articles, he tells us he was hired to deliberately debunk all the UFO reports, and he was frustrated, that the scientific way is just to go where the data leads, but that is not that the govermment wanted him to do , the gov didn't give a damn if they were real, that wanted him to make up **** if he had to, because any narrative that aliens were real was off the table, and as long as the gov has done this in the past, and they have, I can't trust the gov when it comes ot alien reportage.

Here's the thing, when I encounter persons such as yourself, and I ask 'have you examined all that is offered on the subject" I get answers usually in the vicinity of 'yes, I'e read all the reports' and my reply is, no, you haven't you might have seen all that is reported in the news, but what is reported in the news does not go anywhere near as deep as this subject gets,what is reported in the news doesn't even make 'tip of the iceberg, more like tip of the tip of the iceberg and that's the good stuff, not all the chaff an insanity that's out there, which usually gets' all the attention because kook sells more than the mundane but highly relevant good stuff. Take, for example, the 'majestic documents' these are letters, memos, etc., of all the heavy weight players, Vannaver Bush, Eisenhower, Forrestal, General Twining, and the list goes on and on, the vast majority of which were classified once upon a time, and it is clear that General Twining, FDR, Truman, Forrestal, knew about the phenomenon, This websites goes into detail it's authentication protocols, etc., you should check it out, and, I swear, there is so much that is out there that is not reported, you have no idea, and I'm trying to do is light a spark, because, unless you are curious, you are never going to get there with posts such as mine on the internet http://www.majesticdocuments.com/ you are never gong to find out about this if you do not have a burning curiousity, and I'm talking Scully and Mulder curioustiy driving you forward, you'll get some brush off report by someone and accept it as fact.

Might have is better than never, so cool. I'm glad you're at that spot.

No way, and here's why.
There's two broad categories, I placed them in 'neighbors' ( because distance doesn't change the matter-of-factness of it) and 'woo'.

Time travel, I have a big problem with that, and I've never seen any compelling logic for it, other than speed of light slowing down someone goes away at the speed of light, returns only a few days aged while we are 70, but that's not the same thing as the Jules Vern idea, of a machine that can travel forward and backward in time. The Einstein idea doesn't really 'go in the future', it just alters two person's space/time relativity to each other.

Now then, the problem I have with it is simple. There is no time. The past does not exist, nor does the future, so how in hell can you go to somewhere that does not exist? Will someone please explain this to me? NOW is all there is. Even NOW does not exist, because the moment you observe, it's gone. There is no time. For a time machine to work, a pin point in time would have to be absolute, and there is no absolute point in time. Absolutes are unobtainable, so how in hell are you going to go anywhere in time when there is no time . time is NOT a thing like a road one can travel on. Time is just abstract measuring stick to measure objects moving in space relative to each other. Time is memory. It is a mental projection upon reality. It's like numbers. numbers do not actually exist in the physical universe, they exist only in the abstract.

The abstract is real, but it's abstract, it's not physical. By abstract I mean it's in your head. They have properties, and be represented digitally by current flowing and current not flowing ( that's all a calculator does) There is no number one. So, you think there is, where it the number one? Where is it? It's just an abstraction . Is an orange a number one? It's one orange, but the orange is an orange, it's not a number, the number is in your head. Capiche? If you blow up this " 1 " enlarge it, you will see it's consist of pixels, and pixels are segments of current flowing and not flowing. Its just a graphic representation of what is in your head.

Time is the same way, it's in your head, it's an abstraction. Where is this 'yesterday'? it doesn't exist except in your head. Where is tommorrow? It's in your head. Can tommorrow be predicted, maybe, but that's a different type of sensitivity, it's not actually looking at the future, it's sensing what it will be, and no 'clairvoyant' is 100% correct, they might get it right more than you and me, but that's like a guy who's a good handicapper at the horse races. A clairvoyant is to sensing things like a dog is to smelling things 100 times better than you are or i. I swear, I can't believe all these geniuses can't see this. Am I the only one? Please tell me it isn't so, or tell me what I'm missing, and I haven't even touched the paradox issue.

Are there other dimensions? Maybe, but they are all happening in the NOW. See, EVEN if you went in the past, you are still in the NOW, all that is changed as it looks like the past, and why would it? Where are you going to go in the NOW that looks like 50 years ago? That makes NO sense. And I'm not even touching the paradox issues. Here's another paradox. If you COULD go in the past, then someone from the future could go here. So, where the hell are all of these people from the future? I know, some are saying aliens are humans from the future. Occam's razor just says they are our neighbors stopping by for a visit. Maybe they are going foreclose on our planet, of whatever scheme they got cooked up , no one knows.

Someone said, 'nothing is impossible'. That's not actually a true statement No, if you give a thousand monkeys enough time, they are not going to type out a shakespearean quality play, sorry.

So, time travel? There is nothing matter-of-fact about it, it's woo city.

Yes, they need much more, thing is, there is overwhelming evidence, if I printed all the documents, they would fill a stadium. See, it's the tonnage that's overwhelming, not any single document. You could start by going here: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/index.php click on the column items to the left, ignore the books in the center. there's documents, and the protocols for their authentication, review them. This is a good place to start Then youtube search all the
'sirius witness testimony' listings on youtube, testimonies of incredible things by credible persons. Just do it. I don't like Dr. Greer, he's smart, but he gets to 'new agey' for my blood, but he does put out the great testimonies of credible persons with amazing stories to tell, mostly military stuff.

Two things, in law, someone's liberty or cash is at stake, and neither are true here. So, I mean the more matter of fact version of it. If you wake up and see snow all over the place, you can presume it snowed the night before. If there is a literally tons of documents pointing to UFOs and visitations, it would not be unreasonable to presume aliens exist and have visited the earth, just as we presume Christ was a real person, owing to the tonnage of reportage through the annals of history on his existence.

It's the horse water analogy. "you're not convinced', but you haven't looked as deeply into the subject as I have.
Read 'Walking Among Us'. Read the entire book. It's written for skeptics. You're the horse, that book is water, just one bucket, you'll need a lot more and you'll need to be a helluva lot more thirsty.

The tonnage of evidence, is what rises it to the 'presumptive' level, not chaff evidence, wheat evidence and we haven't scratched the surface, nor is it possible here. My only objective, if possible, is to light a spark.

IF it is true, wouldn't it be the story of the century, and if it is true, wouldn't you be interested?

I would, but maybe that's the difference between you and I. Some people just don't care about it, it's not like it's going to help you pay the rent.

 

Was he running after a little femme cat fatale?
Was his name PePe by any chance?

 

You essentially have said definitely though, because you didn't only assert that there are some kind of alien visitors, you've made several very specific assertions of definitive fact about their technology, how the operate and that "the government" is covering it up. That's going much further than "best explanation".

I strongly suspect you're over-simplifying but even if they did, how would that be any different to you stating it can't be explained by natural phenomena so it must be aliens? I'd challenge anyone who asserted any single definitive explanation for this phenomena, regardless of who there were or what they claimed. You're the only one I've seen do that here though.

If it's better, why aren't you there too?

You just made that up. The two categories are actually "What I want to believe" and "What I want to dismiss out of hand". It's highly ironic that a lot of other people will dismiss the idea of aliens as "woo" on exactly the same kind of basis and you'd attack them for that. Your double standards are getting frustrating.

Yet you have no problem assuming similar fantasy science or technology necessary to travel from other stars. You can (try to) debate all of the abstract theories you like, the fact remains that we simply don't know whether either concept is valid or viable. Dismissing one out of hand yet blindly accepting the other as a necessary assumption as a foundation for your predetermined conclusion is irrational.

That's lots of documents about UFOs, i.e. things that the government agencies haven't identified, and therefore can't be evidence of any specifically proposed set of extraterrestrial aliens in spaceships. Can't you point to any documentation directly and specifically identifying aliens?

Or I've not bought in to the cult. Be honest now, you'd never accept that I've looked "deep enough" unless I came back asserting that aliens definitively visit us and the government is covering it up.

If it were, thousands of people more committed and qualified than me would be interested and would get to the bottom of it.

Are you joking? If I had "overwhelming evidence" proving the existence of extraterrestrial aliens visiting Earth, I'd be a millionaire!

 

No and no. I was being serious. It turns out that one race of ETs resembles a skunk. For real. There are many different races of aliens, and I've run into a few of them.

 

Was it in the 60's? Plenty of peole saw some funky stuff back then...

 

It was in the 1990s and I was in one of the last places that was obscured and private from the prying eyes of the public.

 

I couldn't vote in the poll... there should have been some kind of 'maybe' option.

Nevertheless, if there are alien creatures from other planets, solar systems, etc., that visit the Earth, they've been very damned careful to make certain that they do not leave behind any credible evidence that they've been here.

To this day, there's really been nothing made known to the public that anyone with a triple-digit IQ could call 'proof'....

 

I was really into this whole UFOology thing way back in the 90s. I read Whitley Strieber's "Communion" and was a regular and faithful listener of the Art Bell Show Coast to Coast. My spirit animal at that time was Fox Mulder from the X-Files. "I want to believe" was my motto, but I needed proof.

The 90s was the peak of all this conspiracy UFO stuff, not to mention Big Foot, Chupacabras, and multiple cabals that supposedly ran the world behind a veil of secrecy. What did all this inquiry accomplish? Well, it did finally blow the cover off of Area 51, a pretty good give away of this is when Popular Mechanics ran multiple articles about the secret base, and of course Google maps. It also forced the government to open up its records about Roswell. Now I am perfectly aware that many in this community of believers don't think the government has revealed all, and that is not to say I take the governments revelation at face value, but that is the funny thing when you start dealing with a mythos -- it requires greater and greater complexity in order to justify it. There is no brake such as Occam's Razor to keep all these conspiracies rooted in reality.

So when you say:

You, as well as these researchers, are completely ignoring the fact of cultural influence on these subjects. We ALL now have a visual vocabulary in regards to UFOs and alien abduction, and the Hill case was the template. The subjects do not need to know each other, but they share the same media as the rest of us. And because hypnosis is a collaborative process between the subject and the hypnotist, it becomes fraught with traps of the imagination. Anyone who has ever played Dungeons and Dragons knows how this collaborative storytelling process works. This is no different. Whether you want to call this mass delusions or just plain old Urban Mythmaking (which is an actual discipline), it in and of itself is not proof.

So we have no shortage of hypotheses about UFOs, what we need is concrete evidence, or at the very least a testable theory. What complicates the research into these phenomena is the cottage industry of amatuer researches, some of whom I admit at least try to follow a scientific method, but others are just flim-flam hucksters who've found a way of making money off this stuff. A good example is Richard Hoagland, a regular guest on Art Bell's show, he is the man credited for the face on Mars thing back in the late 80s. I actually attended one of his lectures and he does a great job of talking up his background and providing "proof", but the subject of pareidolia never comes up....I wonder why?

Then to further complicate things, you have all these "reality" TV shows with all these central-casting "expert investigators" further muddying the waters. Ancient Aliens by far is the most atrocious offender of pseudoscience, all built around Erich von Däniken's hypothesis from the 70s. The popularity of these shows actually degrades from serious inquiry.

 

That gives me a thought. What if most of the government knows nothing. Or at least when the military encounters the things, they don't know any more than the rest of us. So there's nothing to release.

But, by the way, I also think that there is a secret, unknown branch of the military that deals with this stuff. (I've seen it).

 

It can't be too secret if you've seen it, can it?

What's most likely and most supported by evidence here is that people are paranoid, people mistake what they see in the sky, and people make **** up for attention.

 

There's evidence that UFO sitings and hauntings are positively related. Orbs! Its all orbs. I've seen em on Ghost Hunters. Orbs that look a little like moths. Case closed.

 

Since you're pinning me down on this, let's go with 'I think it's the best explanation, as predatory cult doesn't do it for me'

I'm not there because i'm over here, which is a spot much much much further down the road, remember, it's a journey
I've looked at a lot more, tons more, of compelling stuff than you have.
If and when you have traveled on the much longer journey I've taken, you just might be where I'm at.

Neighbors and woo, does have a nice ring to it, eh? Maybe a rock group? I'll admit I do want to believe, but if something doesn't make sense to me, nor have I seen any compelling evidence of it, I"m not going to believe it. But, one man's woo is another's true, I understand that, too.

Well, if aliens are here, then it's not fantasy. Be careful tossing off statements arising from emotion. You haven't gone the distance on this road that I have. See, either they are here or they are not.

. Many do, such as this memo to FDR from General Marshall, the Chief Of Staff Of The Army

The authenticity ratings and methods are given here, please review them
Here is the investigative team
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/team.php
Ratings and authentication methods
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/authentication.php
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/authenticity.php

The document is hard to read, but it says: (the 'air raid' is the famous one over Los Angeles on February 25. 1942 , photo below )

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/pdf/marshall-fdr-march1942.pdf

"regarding the air raid over Los Angeles it was learned by Army G2 that Rear Admiral Anderson… recovered an unidentified airplane off the coast of California… with no bearing on conventional explanation... This Headquarters has come to the determination that the mystery airplanes are in fact not earthly and according to secret intelligence sources they are in all probability of interplanetary origin."

Marshall goes on to state: "As a consequence I have issued orders to Army G2 that a special intelligence unit be created to further investigate the phenomenon and report any significant connection between recent incidents and those collected by the director the office of Coordinator of Information."


Note: the memo bears correct Office of Chief of Staff (OCS) file numbers and has "Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit" (IPU) typed on it at a later time by a different typewriter. It is logical to believe that this is the order that sets up the IPU.
Here is a photo of the raid taken by the Los Angeles Times:

Tell you what, look a lot deeper, and we'll put that one on hold for now.

I don't know about thousands, but there are a number of people who are committed and they have, or are trying to do just that.
If you had even looked, set foot on the path, you would know this.

The false assumption you are (or people like you who are ) making is that if proof is there, it would be all over the news.
Not true. the government has embarked on a massive cover up campaign since the 40s. There is a reason they do, and I can understand why they do, which I will explain if you are curious
Butthe government is starting to loosen up, with the UAP videos (the navy now calls them UAPs unidentifired aerial phenomenon), the Navy never did anything like that in the past. You an rest assured they have a lot more they are not releasing.

No you wouldn't, you'd be where Stanton Friedman was when he died, just making a moderate middle class living dealing with debunkers who do not do there homework, dealing with 'bah humbugs' who think it's all 'fantastic nonsense' dealing with government disinformants who intentionally put out convincing but fake documents ( knowing that they will be easily debunked, at which point the debunkers will claim victory ) day in and day out.
We know this because of Richard Doty, he admitted to being one of those guys: Watch this video "Mirage Men". The video details this.

And here is an interview with Doty Make sure you watch Mirage Men first, before the direct interview with Doty, which is about much more than the Mirage stuff.


No, you gotta be Mulder and Scully.

I invite you to read Friedman's book on why he believes the Majestic !2 field operating manual is legitimate, it blows out of the water all of the debunkers claims.

But, you won't do that. Here's the summarized version, courtesy of Friedman. Now, Friedman doesn't think everything is legit, he believes Bob Lazar is a fraud ( and I don't ).

Stanton Friedman is no slouch, before he got into UFology, he was a nuclear physicist. Now why would anyone trash a career in nuclear physics and embark down a road to promote UFOs ? Not because of profit, that is certain.

http://www.stantonfriedman.com/index.php?ptp=articles&fdt=2004.04.15

more documents
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/1948-1959.php

 

Well it was a one in a million set of events that occurred for me to know about it. It's like winning the lottery.

 

Color me skeptical.

 

Hey, you said that time travel is woo, but you should see this topic I made a while ago:

The future affects the past. Time is concurrent. Past, present, and future all happen at the same time. And we exist forever even now, this conversation will always be here.

As an aside, do you follow physics? What is your take on quantum physics and the multiverse theory?

 

Then don't play the lottery.

 

That's the conclusion I have drawn over all these years. The public by and large tends to fantasize a lot about the knowledge and technical sophistication of our covert military, and of course, they want it that way. However, the reality is far more pedestrian. It's been said before that when Reagan entered office and he was given a tour of the war room that he was quite disappointed. In his mind, as well as many others, he had that image of the war room as seen in Kubrik's movie, Dr. Strangelove. The actual war room is quite small and mundane.

It is NOT THIS:


But rather this:

You mean DARPA? They have been around since 1958.

But if you mean super secret agencies, then those would fall under the NSA and CIA, but since we're talking UFOs, DARPA is the most likely player since they are the ones responsible for advanced defense technology.