Do UFOs/ETs exist, are they real?

If the past an the future are happening in the present, then they are not the past or the future, they are the present, and that doesn't make sense.

Wherever you are, it is always NOW. If you went to the past, it would be NOW dressed up like the past, and that doesn't make sense to me.

There is no place to go but in the NOW. The past and future only exist in your memories and imagination. So, the only way to go into the past is to recall it, the only way to go into the future is to imagine it, because the only places the past and future exist are in your mind.

But, if you can demonstrate or prove otherwise.......

I'm all ears and eyes. Enlighten me.

 

Jacobs addresses the cultural issue. A large swath of his research was done before the book "communion' came out, before there was any info on what aliens looked like, and that is why it is compelling, because of the virtual identical descriptions of
1. What aliens looked like
2. What procedures were done to them.

The TV shows are driven by the profit motive, the profit motive has only one purpose, to sell TV ad space, to sell stuff, and that fact can taint things.

.Jacobs does not charge for his services, which is one of the reasons I trust him
Yes, he has four books, but his books are not top sellers, he really isn't making a lot of money off of them. Those who do this full time, they have a right to earn a living, so I don't fault, necessarily, someone who is earning a living at it. If they are getting super rich at it, I might have an issue, if you have evidence of that, let me know. In fact, if it were about money, why UFOs Start a church, as L.. Ron Hubbard once proclaimed, the money is in religion, not writing pulp fiction.

The whole issue of 'confabulation' is addressed by Jacobs. It's not an issue. Confabs are always changing, factual events are always becoming clearer and clearer. A trained therapist knows the difference.

Most of the abductees, the last thing they want to know is that this is really happening, and if there is any morsel out there that can convince them of otherwise, they sometimes go for it, such as "emma woods', who I believe is being subjected by a debunker and has been convinced that this is not really happening, because if they know it's not really happening, then this nightmare is 'in the mind' and not 'real' and they are then 'safer' a lot safer, because it's not really happening.
Here is a long interview with Jacobs by skeptico


Always be mindful that no matter where you are, it just might be possible that things are not what they seem.
Funny thing, adbuctions are normally intergenerational, if it is happening to you, it is happening to your kids, your grandma and grandpa, too.

Debunkers have agenda, too. Everyone has an agenda. all I want is the truth.

 

The problem with all these theories is that they require HUGE sums of energy to actually make something happen. Just look at the size and the amount of energy used by the Large Hadron Collider -- and that is just to split atoms!

Michio Kaku has written extensively about the science and technology needed to bring many of these sci-fi theories into reality. All of them, from space travel to time travel, requires a degree of energy that can only be equalled by the power of our own sun.

 

I don't. Much better to spend wisely!

 

Check out the majestic documents website, and their authentication procedures

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/authentication_intro.php

peruse the site

 

And what makes you think the debunkers are also not after the "truth"?

Truth seems to be a pretty elusive thing, especially in this day and age.

Just think about it for a moment, why would the government want to keep the existence of extraterrestrials a secret for so many decades? I'm familiar with the Brookings Report, but that was drafted in 1960, before we went to the moon. Wouldn't you think that if they indeed did have verifiable evidence they would have used it to boost NASA's budget by now?

Look, in this day of lightning fast communications and a shrinking world, it's only natural to still want to believe in fairies and unicorns to keep some sense of ahh in our lives. There are very few undiscovered countries to explore, and the areas where we still have mysteries, like our oceans, require lots of expensive equipment and systems to explore. We're still at a minimum about 10 years from actually going to Mars, but with what is currently happening to us politically and economically, we really need to be clear on what our long term goals are for manned exploration of space. There is still a public fantasy that we could use Mars as a secondary home since we've done such a great job of screwing up this planet, but terraforming Mars is ridiculous if we can't even terraform Earth.

So if what you want to find is The Truth, you may be looking in the wrong place.

 

I was asking you about physics because time is really spacetime.

I'm going to turn this over to a poster who I think knows his stuff. (But, he's not been here for a few years, so you can't interact with him). So I, here's a quote from him:

 

Does it change my statement?

All there is is now. Wherever you are, it is NOW.

Past is in your mind as memory, future is in your mind as imagination.

Past and future exist, but only in the abstract. By abstract, exist in the mind.

Past and future do not exist, therefore, so how does one travel to somewhere that does not exist?

Maybe as 'dimensions' but that would be another dimension that looks like the past, but, in point of fact, it is still NOW.
It wouldn't be your true past.

Feel free to prove me wrong I do not know anything about 'dimensions'. I do not doubt, or promote the idea, because I have no experience with it, nor have I met anyone who did. Enlighten me if you do know someone that has. I'd be happy to look and review it.

 

I had a buddy on these forums, AboveAlpha, and he was very into quantum physics. He would say that you shouldn't mistake the Hollywood use of the term 'dimension' with the physics term 'dimension'. Dimensions are just geometry of the universe, and we exist in at least 10 dimensions.

The Hollywood term is actually better described as a divergent state of reality. In multiverse theory the universe splits into many realities whenever a choice is made. Schrodinger's cat.

Also, I'm not sure why you think time isn't real. And that the past and future don't exist and it's only "now". Time exists for both past, present, and future and it's concurrent. That means all three are coexisting and affecting each other.

 

NASA is not how they do it. NASA requires congressional support. All of the crap going on over at area 51 is 'off budget' They do their own thing, which is why Rumsfield mentioned that there was $2 trillion not accounted for. The reason is area 51 ( 52, etc, ) black projects. Black projects are technically illegal, but the gov does it anyway, such as the F 117 Nighthawk. and no one is complaining about they produce and fund those secret planes,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...fea198-06b1-11e3-9259-e2aafe5a5f84_story.html
[/QUOTE]

Look, in this day of lightning fast communications and a shrinking world, it's only natural to still want to believe in fairies and unicorns to keep some sense of ahh in our lives. There are very few undiscovered countries to explore, and the areas where we still have mysteries, like our oceans, require lots of expensive equipment and systems to explore. We're still at a minimum about 10 years from actually going to Mars, but with what is currently happening to us politically and economically, we really need to be clear on what our long term goals are for manned exploration of space. There is still a public fantasy that we could use Mars as a secondary home since we've done such a great job of screwing up this planet, but terraforming Mars is ridiculous if we can't even terraform Earth.

So if what you want to find is The Truth, you may be looking in the wrong place.[/QUOTE]

The bulk of the UFO sitings pretty much began in the late 40s. There have been UFO crashes and the gov has covered this up

At the time, there were a host of reasons, I'm not saying "I have proof" I'm giving you what i believe are the reasons, based on my research.

1. Because of the mass panic over the Orson Wells "War Of the Words" Broadcast, which many people, tuning in, didn't hear the part at the beginning when Wells told the audience that the hour was a play ( not real live events ).
But it was scripted in realty TV show fashion. If you tuned in and missed that part, it would seem like a radio announcer was announcing taht we were under alien attack, and that is what happened, hundreds of thousands of people paniced, took to the streets, etc.
So the gov on that point, alone, doesn't want any thing about real UFOs getting out because of public panic.

2. Religion. If Christ died for my sins, did he die for the sins of aliens? See, it would case a lot of people issues with their religion, or so they perceived it as a problem

3. The UFOs have anti-gravity, know how to manipulate space/time and have anti-inertia and move at multiple mach speeds, over 10k miles per hour and turn at right angles at those speeds, and so the technology was advanced, and America wanted to keep secret, didn't want the Russians to have the technology. the propulsion they move about locally is different than the propulsion they use to travel through the galaxy and beyond.
Military has, in it's possession, a dozen or so of these alien craft, and are trying, for years, to reverse engineer them, and they don't want anyone to know about what is going on because they dont want Russia to know about them. Who ever masters anti-gravity, will rule the world. We are on the verge of going it, search for 'TR3B' black project, and the sightings of this craft all over the world. Here's a video of one, they have cloaking technology, and they can render themselves invisible, as you will see. Now, if someone prove this is a hoax, please let me know.

There are many photos of this thing, but this is the only video, and I'm not seeing any debunks on it on the internet


the objection to 3 is, 'if they traversed galaxies how is it possible they could crash?".

good question, unless they are in cahoots with our governments, and wanted us to have a few UFOs so we could tinker with them. Or, maybe they just crashed. Another point is, they have cloaking technology, so the real number UFO visitations is far greater than we could possibly know, and crashes, as a percentage of the the actual number of visitations, is very small, and like anything in the world, Aliens are not immune to Murphy's Law, either. **** happens. I don't know, but I think it's possible both are true because, if you believe Bob Lazar, we have UFOs that are not in any way damaged. Crashes are, indeed, rare, and the real truth is that aliens donate them to the US military.

Personally, I think all rocket or thrust based space travel is a waste of time and taxpayer funds. what they should be doing is figuring out how aliens get here, and go with that, because once they figure that out, you wouldn't need a ship as big as a camper with a mack truck sized fuel tank, you'd only need a ship as big as a car, because, you get there quick, no need to bring your camping gear.

In fact, they are, the gov as a craft called the TR3b, which is, as I understand it, reverse engineered from alien space craft.
best video sighting of Tr3b

Wiki entry on black triangle citings, and predecessor TR3A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(UFO)#TR-3A_Black_Manta
First mention of the fact that the black Triangle was American made, and has a name, TR3B, was given by Edgar Fouche, an area 51 whistleblower

=In depth documentary on Edgar Fouche

 

When I say 'time isn't real, I mean it in the same fashion that numbers are not real.

Now, pay close attention.

Both time and numbers are not real in the physical sense, they both exist in the abstract, and both do affect us,

Their effect on the real world is real, but they exist in the abstract. by 'abstract' I mean they exist in our minds.

Take the number one. Can you give me a number one on my plate?

You can give me one orange, but that is not the number one, it is an orange, and it's comprised of billions of molecules.

See what I mean? It's a value, and values are abstractions.

Abstractions exist in our heads. They affect the real word, but they exist in the abstract.

Follow me? They are like words, words exist in our minds, in our heads, we ascribe values to sounds, but words only exist in the abstract.

Time is similar. There is no time, but there is a value we contain in our heads, we measure it with clocks, but clocks just give us representations of the values in our heads.

See what I mean? That is what i mean when I say time exists in the abstract, it's just relative values of objects moving in space with respect to each other.

If you were to look up close at a number one on a calculator, is the number in the physical universe?

No, it's just a representation of a value in our head. If you were to blow up that number so you can see it up close, the one on your calculator, what would you see? You'd see pixels, which are different degrees of light hitting a phosphorous surface ( thinking CRTs here, I'm not real familar with LED tech) but they just paint the representation one "1" that exists in our brains on the surface of the screen.
Numbers do not exist in the real world, they exist in our heads, Numbers have properties, but the properties are numbers affecting the real world.

They effect the real world, and it's therefore true that abstract things can affect the real world.

That is what I mean, Unless you demonstrate it for me disproving this. I'm open, so let me know what you have.


If time is not a real thing like a road is, how can we travel in it? I can travel on a road, but time is abstract, where is it that I can travel on it?

That is my question which no one has provided to me an answer. Some say 'other dimensions' fine, but if there are other dimensions, they occur in the present time. If they look like the past, it's a past that looks like the past, but it's still in the NOW. It will not be OUR true past, because our true past no longer exists. In fact, the past only exists as a memory in our minds. both past and future exists in the abstract.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

Yes, I know all about it. That doesn't actually interest me as much as official reports of verified military encounters. That is the best evidence that we have. The majestic document is really still just hearsay. It is fascinating but there is no way to prove it is real.

Even the recent videos released by the Pentagon aren't very interesting because the observed object didn't do anything that seemed to defy the limits of known technology. It could have been anything. However, the Iran event I linked earlier defies explanation.

I spent two years reading every declassified document available to the public at that time - thousands of military documents.

 

Based in your research, do you accept the premise that aliens are visiting earth?

If you do, do you have any information that would shed light on their agenda, if they have one other than just studying us as we study apes, nature, etc.

Or, are we just an entry in some cosmic alien encyclopedia?

What do you think about it all?

 

Time is real because it can be physically manipulated.

 

I don't make any assumptions. If I had to bet my life on it one way or the other, I would say yes. Have I seen definitive proof? No.

They could well be transdimensional travelers or time travelers. So I certainly don't limit it to simple aliens. Near the end of his life, Hynek came to the same conclusion. He thought transdimensional travel was most consistent with the evidence.

They [if they exist] might be distant future humans. That is technically the simplest answer. They are time travelers.

The popular claim among heavy true believers is that there are a great many races that are visiting or have visited. Some are good. Some are bad. Some seem to have an interest in genetics. Others allegedly have conveyed warnings about the future of the earth. In short, the claims are all over the map. There is no single answer.

I would bet they have been visiting for as long as we have been human, and perhaps longer. They [one of them] might even be responsible for our existence. It is more likely than a biblical explanation.

 

Reread my post. Abstractions do affect the physical universe. I think you misunderstood me, or you didn't read my entire comment.

And, out of curiousity, how can it be manipulated? What is your thinking on that point?

 

You can't do that because it's not what you actually believe. You play the soft sell with the "best explanation" but reveal your true feelings when you unconditionally state lots of detailed assertions about aliens, their technology and government involvement.

You said "might have is better than never" but your position is essentially "never" on any possible explanation other than aliens. "Definitely aliens" and "definitely not aliens" are essentially the same position.

If time travellers or demons are here it's not fantasy. Be careful tossing off statements arising from emotion.

That is not specifically identifying aliens. It's doing the same thing you are, presuming aliens just because they can't think of anything better. That isn't evidence for aliens, it is evidence for an unidentified phenomena.

That all but confirms my suspicion.

There are a number of people who, like you, have convinced themselves that aliens are truth and are seeking further confirmation. There will be thousands of qualified people who have looked in to the field (or at least aspects of it) and either reached alternative conclusions or acknowledged that we don't know. Of course, you'll dismiss anyone who holds any kind of different opinion to you as just having "not looked deep enough".

But you only know that because the cover-up has been broken. The information that has been revealed as having been kept secret and covered-up only seems to consist of speculation and assumptions, not clear and definitive proof of aliens. The fact they didn't know is probably a factor in the cover-up in the first place - ignorance is the last thing either government or the military are inclined to admit.

If I had "overwhelming evidence" though, that wouldn't be a problem. That's my point. The evidence you have can't be overwhelming because it hasn't be able to overwhelm anyone.

I don't doubt it is but isn't that just instructions on what they would do if they found something extraterrestrial? In itself, it isn't proof that happened. There will be secret government documents laying out what they'd do in the event of nuclear war but that obviously doesn't mean it has happened.

 

Do you also think that 3 dimensions, (I believe) height, width, and depth are also abstract things? Because time is the 4th dimension and it really isn't separate from space (first 3 dimensions). It is spacetime not space and time. And I think, although I haven't read it, that time passage is different depending on where you are. General relativity. The twins space travel, ect...

 

The document is a memo From Army Chief Of Staff (Gen, ) Marshall saying to FDR that the 'craft was of interplanetary origin'.

NOT 'unidentified'.

 

mathematical equations and Dimensions are values, they are abstract. Values are in your head. They are real values, the abstractions are real, not debating that point. Numbers do not exist in the physical plane, they exist in the mental plane.

But, of course, the abstract affects the physical, no question on that point. Math has properties, equations, they are real in the sense they affect the physical, but they live in the mental plane.
They are abstract, and, again, the abstract affects the physical plane, but does not live there.

the number ONE is in your head. But, that value is real. It still lives in the mental plane, nevertheless.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

It doesn't suggest there was any positive evidence that was the case though, only that they hadn't been able to establish any other explanation so they assumed "interplanetary". The logical answer at the point would be "We don't know", which wouldn't prevent any further investigations but could prevent those investigations being unduly influenced by a predetermined conclusion.

 

The document identifies 'craft of interplanetary origin', Army Secy of Staff (Gen) Marshall to FDR, that is not 'unidentified'.

Now then

This document below is a briefing document which was prepared by Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoeter for President Eisenhower on November 18, 1952

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/pdf/eisenhower_briefing.pdf

Identifies human-like creatures to be labeled as "Extraterrestrial Biological Entities" and they are from downed craft of interplanetary origin

It names all the members of the "Majestic 12". of whom Hillenkoeter is designated MJ-1.

This is a screenshot of the link to that document on the Majestic Documents website, and I provide this screenshot because all the links to documents
are given an 'authenticity rating' and the arrow indicates the website gave it a high rating as to authenticity

The summary of the authentication methods are given here:

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/authentication_intro.php

This document reveals information on authentication protocols employed by this website, an inventory of the documents on this website, the number of pages are given, and the method of how the document was printed, usually by typewriter, and confirmation details, prepared by Robert M. Wood, Ph.D

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/pdf/rmwood_mufon2001.pdf

So,
the whole premise is that we can reach a place where the evidence is presumptive. By that I do not mean how the term is used in a court of law, I mean ins the sense of "if you woke up on the morning, and looked out the window and snow was covering the entire landscape, you can safely 'presume' it snowed the night before while you were asleep".

That is what I mean by 'presumptive".

If you scrutinize this website, we can established that the men surrounding FDR, Truman, and Eisenhower, were concerned about crafts of interplanetary origin and their inhabitants sometimes called 'human-like creaters' 'human-like beings' and/or 'Extraterrestrial Biological Entities" or EBEs. and these terms were used. The terms 'aliens' were not used at the time.

I have scrutinized the methods, and I find them satisfying as to their conclusions. Naturally, you might disagree, but at least study them yourself, and don't offer me a kneejerk reaction.

 

YOu need to change your avatar to DisingenuousJoe.

Since when do Generals, especially the Army Chief Of Staff, in writing, even use the term 'interplanetary origin' ? If he was even remotely believing it could be a human flown craft, there is no way in hell a man of his stature is going to commit to paper something like that.

You are not thinking it through.

Really. If you think a UFO is going to land on the WH lawn, a little grey guy is going to jump out and say 'where is the press corp', I'm from Zeti Reticuli, now give me some respect".

It's not going to happen like that.

 

I apologize for the 'disingenuous' remark. But, I stand by the rest of the comment.

 

I'm not going to try to prove you wrong, but what about universal values that are specific to just our universe?and there are other universes where they are completely different. Are those things real or abstract?