WHY NOT A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SERVICE FOR EVERYBODY?

Discussion in 'Health Care' started by LafayetteBis, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It can be done and, as you say, easily. Yes, good healthcare is expensive anywhere. But it is both a life-save and a life-extender.

    What's missing is the will to do it. Obama tried, but in the 2010-midterms the HofR went over to the Replicants, who stopped any further movement on the bill. So, it died there. It would have helped to look into why people voted so massively for Donald Dork. (Who won in the Electoral College but not the Popular-vote.)

    Meaning what? Meaning this: Democracy is a game that is played with rotten-rules. Only two parties and the one that spends the most money on advertising wins.

    National Voting turnout once reasonably high dipped in the 1920s and never really recovered. See here.


    An around fifty-percent average is VERY mediocre turnout for a genuine democracy ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  2. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This hard-working middle class American doesn't want to be forced to pay for a street corner drug dealer's health care. You can "blah-blah-blah" all you want, but it is the truth. I am certain I am not the only one.
     
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are not making any sense whatsoever!

    You are confusing a major health disaster facing the country with an addictive-habit that some of us have adopted over the past 30-years.

    In fact, you THINK you are speaking for the "hard-working middle class American", which is hyperbole on your part! The beliefs and desires of the American public are expressed at the voting-booth. Not only by you, not only by me, but by US!

    Unfortunately that takes a common will to be done both earnestly and competently. We Yanks seem to prefer to piss-'n-moan in an on-line forum rather than EXERCISE their democratic right at the voting-booth. For our so-called Democracy, voter turnout is laughable*. See that confirmed in this graphic history of voter-turnout in America here.

    We have a democracy, yes. And yet, Americans it seems like to watch the TV-debates but Not Vote in elections!

    What kind of "democracy" is that? Do tell me... !

    PS: And I will not dwell here how our voting is misrepresented by manipulation at the Electoral College and Gerrymandering on the state level!
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  4. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Now you have finally made some sense. Your daily pasting of these pages with pseudo-socialist pissing and moaning is pointless, as you yourself just stated above (please note, I am completely agreeing with you).
     
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So now you are talking on behalf the "hard-working middle-class American" again, are you?

    Wow! All of them ... ?
     
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You go on Ignore anyway ...
     
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  7. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Note to forum: Well, that this person is running away after presenting such "know-it-all," "more intelligent than everyone" posts which are typically littered with insults against the "commoners" certainly goes to show a "can dish it out but can't take it" mentality.
     
  8. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    Preserving life and health is the fundamental social function, from top to bottom, from "nuclear family" to national government. Failure to provide necessities such as healthcare is tantamount to criminal, and at least immoral.
     
  9. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    First...who are you referring to when you say "you" and "your"?

    Second...you really believe France's interest in oil is diminishing? You even believe France has no stakes in Libyan oil? You also believe France had no involvement in Gaddafi's ousting & death? Well, your beloved France has been neck deep in Libya's violent & political quagmire for a long time, and is helping to fuel it to this day. And guess what, it's mostly about OIL.

    A LITTLE HISTORY

    * The Crimes of French Imperialism
    France should not be synonymous with the word “freedom”. As with all colonial empires, its history is soaked with the blood of oppressed peoples across the globe. And its record of perpetrating violence continues.
    The size of the territory claimed by the French empire in the 19th and 20th centuries was second only to Britain. From North Africa to South-East Asia, the Middle East to the South Pacific, millions were subjugated, repressed and murdered as French rulers scrambled to secure resources and markets for manufactured goods and profitable investments.
    It was only in the face of heroic mass struggles by the colonized determined to win their independence that France was eventually forced to cede control in the 1950s and ’60s.

    * France’s Intifada: Rocking the Casbah, From Paris to Algiers
    The French Intifada is a “tour around some of the most important and dangerous front lines of what many historians now call the ‘Fourth World War,’ from the banlieues of France to Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco, and back again to the banlieues and prisons in France,” Hussey writes. “This war is not just a conflict between Islam and the West or the rich North and the globalized South, but a conflict between two very different experiences of the world – the colonizers and the colonized.”

    FRANCE & LIBYA, FROM SARKOZY TO MACRON

    * Pride and profit: France's interest in Libya's war
    French war planes were the first to take to the skies in NATO's campaign against Gaddafi. At the Paris conference on Libya on Thursday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said the sorties weren't over.
    "We've agreed to continue the NATO strikes until Colonel Gaddafi and his supporters are no longer a threat to Libya," he said.

    * Opinion: Why US and NATO will always share blame for Libya’s chaos
    [Khalifa Haftar] also allegedly receives support from Egypt, the UAE and even France, who has quietly been carrying out air strikes on Haftar's opponents (Chadian opposition fighters). Not only is France one of the major causes for the chaos that engulfed Libya in 2011 (it was, after all, a French Rafale jet that struck Muammar Gaddafi's fleeing motorcade in Sirte, leading to his brutal murder) but it is still to this day, behind-the-scenes, continuing a meddling, interfering policy in Libya that sees clandestine operatives, advisers and special forces to assist Haftar's aims. This is despite Haftar's long list of alleged crimes.

    * Tuareg accuse France of promoting Libya’s latest post-NATO war
    The Tuareg also see the Tebu as proxies for the French. With French forces now spread across the Sahel in Mali, Niger, and Chad – and playing a major part in international deliberations on Libya – the Tuareg see the French as trying to expand what they still refer to as their colonial interests. The Tuareg see these interests as centering on the oil wealth of the Fezzan, and especially the Sharara oil field, in which the French oil company Total has a stake.

    * Libya since 2011: Bias and International Oil Interests
    Memos from Hillary Clinton’s emails, which were released in 2015, demonstrate the explicit consideration of oil interests on the part of the United States when crafting policy towards Libya. A memo explained that “the DGSE officers indicated that they expected the new government of Libya to favor French firms and national interests, particularly regarding the oil industry in Libya.” The two leaders of the NTC, Mustafa Abdul Jalil and General Abdul Fatah Younis, had “accepted the offer” in return for French help in overthrowing Gaddafi.

    * Why Does France Support Libyan Warlord Khalifa Haftar's Assault on Tripoli?
    France has a years-long history of supporting Haftar from a combination of providing on-the-ground logistical support to shielding the warlord from the international community.
    So why is France, a nation mired by domestic backlash over refugees from the Middle East and North Africa, supporting the warlord’s move to take over all of Libya?
    The answer may be simple: oil. France relies on oil imports from Haftar-controlled regions of Libya, so it does not want to lose that strategic partnership by backing his rival government based in Tripoli, even though that government was designated by the U.N. and E.U. to be the country’s only legitimate governmental body. "France is supporting the eastern government, with Haftar, because it has the energy company, Total, in the eastern area of Libya."
    France’s cynical support for Haftar is not only immediately dangerous for millions of Libyans that could be trapped inside Tripoli by the assault, it’s also a great example of how individual state interests can exacerbate conflict and undermine prospects for peace in wartorn nations.
    Even French media are giving cover for Haftar’s assault.

    * How France and Italy fuel Libya’s war? --- Rome backs the Tripoli government (GNA) while France has cozied up to Haftar (LNA)
    “Libya represents a battleground between Rome and Paris over the leading role in the country. Current tensions date back to 2011 when France and the United Kingdom led a military intervention in Libya against Muammar Gaddafi’s regime. Italy was against the intervention,” Giuseppe Dentice, Associate Research Fellow at Italian Institute for International Political Studies (ISPI) told Gulf News.

    * From Gaddafi to Haftar: France plays both sides in Libya
    So, while Paris may claim to be dealing with the Sarraj government, it also maintains close ties with one of its enemies. This has attracted a wave of criticism against Paris since Haftar launched his offensive on Tripoli.

    * France’s double game in Libya --- In backing a warlord, Paris may be dealing itself a losing hand.
    One of President Emmanuel Macron’s first high-profile diplomatic initiatives upon winning office in 2017 was to invite Haftar and Sarraj to a chateau outside Paris to try to broker a power-sharing deal. He didn’t bother to involve the Italians. Critics of France say potential “winnings” in reconstruction contracts and increased business for oil major Total provide one motive for its Libya policy. Haftar, who controls eastern Libya from his stronghold outside Benghazi, grabbed key oilfields operated by Italy’s Eni in the south earlier this year before turning his guns on the capital.

    * France blocks EU call to stop Haftar's offensive in Libya
    France, which has oil assets in eastern Libya, has provided military assistance in past years to Haftar in his eastern stronghold, Libyan and French officials say..
    Italy, the former colonial power and a big player in Libya’s oil sector, has supported the U.N.-backed Prime Minister Fayez al-Serraj.

    * Libya demands answers after French missiles found at pro-Haftar base
    Libya's internationally recognized government on Thursday demanded urgent answers after Paris conceded French missiles were found at a base used by strongman Khalifa Haftar, whose forces are fighting to take over the capital Tripoli.

    * France as Middle-Eastern Arms Dealer
    Libya developed particularly close relations with France after the June 1967 War, when France relaxed its arms embargo on nonfront-line Middle East combatants and agreed to sell weapons to the Libyans such as Mirage 5 aircraft. In 1974 Libya and France signed an agreement whereby Libya exchanged a guaranteed oil supply for technical assistance and financial cooperation. By 1976, however, Libya began criticizing France as an "arms merchant" because of its willingness to sell weapons to both sides in the Middle East conflict because France was also Israel's primary arms supplier (from its modern 1948 Independence War until the mid-1960s), including selling Israel the same Mirage 5 fighters as it sold Libya. Libya later criticized France for its willingness to sell arms to Egypt. Far more serious was Libya's dissatisfaction with French military intervention in the Western Sahara, Chad, and Zaire. In 1978, Muammar Gaddafi noted that although economic relations were good, political relations were not, and he accused France of having reverted to a colonialist policy that former French president Charles de Gaulle had earlier abandoned.

    * Libyan civil war
    On 10 March 2011, France was the first country in the world to recognise the National Transitional Council as the legitimate government of Libya, in the context of the Libyan Civil War against Muammar Gaddafi. French Rafale and Mirage 2000 fighter planes also conducted the first military strikes against Gaddafi's forces by the Western nations and the United Nations. On 19 March 2011 approximately 20 such French warplanes destroyed Libyan tanks and armored vehicles. Some reports state that these French air strikes began even before the end of the emergency meetings in Paris between the leaders of the Western nations and therefore were not coordinated with the air strikes of other nations, causing some friction among the allies.
    In May 2016, French engineering firm Technip announced plans to upgrade a major oil platform in a deal worth $500 million. The platform, located north of Tripoli at the Bahr Essalam oil field is capable of producing 12.6 million barrels a day.

    Planet Reality.

    "Your oil"? Who is "your" in reference to?

    I hope you're not pretending France is some kind of beacon of freedom and green energy. If it's making some headway into these issues then it is only by virtue of good, socially minded people in France...not by the French Élysée.

    I've always been an advocate of green/renewable/nontoxic energy sources & technologies...something the West has a long history of suppressing in its oppressive & long-term imposed dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, the entire world & the environment has been devasted because of it. Green energy has been a no-brainer since the industrial age, but green energy empowers the people...and the globalist elite don't like changes that empower the people. The $trillionaire (old money) elites see us, the people, as "useless eaters" and the "masses of asses". We are nothing but expendable slaves to them. Our role is not to think, thrive, and be free...but to work and fight...all the while they continue to plot how to successfully consolidate global control into a one-world government with the least amount of resistance from us. And France is just one of many players in this U.S./European globalist agenda. So don't fool yourself. Having a better life in France than in America doesn't erase France's ongoing human & environmental abuses worldwide.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  10. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    (Yawn) Yes..yes...we all know Gaddafi was a dictator. I'm certainly not romanticizing Gaddafi, but one would be hard-pressed to label him a ruthless, brutal dictator.

    Gaddafi was inarguably a complex man, an eccentric and a contradiction. He had three sides that stood out: an autocratic & paranoid side (understandably because he was a frequent target of the West), a side that sought to be a father figure & positive force for his people & nation, and a side that sought to fulfill his vision of a breakaway, unified group of nations as a formidable force to resist Western hegemony.

    Gaddafi was also the product of an oppressive global climate of fear, greed, uncertainty and instability engendered by the brutal foreign policies of Western nations. You either play ball with the Western mafia or you get kicked in the teeth. Being the leader of his country, Gaddafi was both subject, and privy to deep inside knowledge of an ongoing campaign by the West to undermine his power (and take his life).

    So let's not down Gaddafi for having to take strong measures to safeguard the security of himself, his family, and his nation against a powerful conglomerate of Western empires sporting a lengthy history of crimes against humanity. Castro, Maduro, Chavez, Allende, Saddam, Iran's regime, Yemen's Saleh, Kim-Jung Un, et. al. were/are no different in their situation. For better or worse, however way such leaders decide to treat their own people, they all understand the need to be vigilant against the constant presence & threat of Western intrigue.

    If you think it was a good thing to remove Gaddafi, then who do you think it was good for? Certainly not its people. Compare Libya today to Libya under Gaddafi. Similarly, compare Iraq today to Iraq under Saddam. Now tell me which is better...to allow Western powers to assume control so that they may plunder resources, create economic instability & income stratification, homelessness, and scarcity...or keep the current dictator until the people themselves decide to rise up on their own and take responsibility?

    And don't ignore the fact that we're talking about a single leader basically confined & isolated, with limited resources, limited defense, limited influence/power, who is subject to persistent outside pressure (assassination attempts, embargoes, sanctions, etc.) & covert ops by the West...and who, unlike the Western nations, lacked the benefits of the plundered resources & cheap labor of other nations worldwide through colonialism, economic pressure, and military invasion.

    Ironically, citizens of Western nations have their own dictatorships to contend with, yet proudly believe their country is "the best" because, though it sucks, it doesn't suck as much as some other nations. The main difference is that the West is dictated by a highly stratified system resembling a pyramidal hierarchy. The apex of this pyramid are the old-money/trillionaire class who is never subject to a petty "vote" by the people, but who always remain in power, and always rule without challenge or transparency. Beneath them are the secret societies through which they rule. Next are the elected/public officials who are basically well compensated managers of the entire system, and whose secondary role is to act as a distraction by taking the blame for any problems.

    As an aside...

    * BBC Caught Fabricating Videos to Push Libya and Syria War Agendas

    * BBC Protects U.K.’s Close Ally Saudi Arabia With Incredibly Dishonest and Biased Editing
    The BBC loves to boast about how “objective” and “neutral” it is. But a recent article, which it was forced to change, illustrates the lengths to which the British state-funded media outlet will go to protect one of the U.K. government’s closest allies, Saudi Arabia, which also happens to be one of the country’s largest arms purchasers (just this morning, the Saudi ambassador to the U.K. threatened in an op-ed that any further criticism of the Riyadh regime by Jeremy Corbyn could jeopardize the multi-layered U.K./Saudi alliance).
     
  11. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [QUOTE="JCS, post: 1071568070, member: 83978"So let's not down Gaddafi for having to take strong measures to safeguard the security of himself, his family, and his nation against a powerful conglomerate of Western empires sporting a lengthy history of crimes against humanity. Castro, Maduro, Chavez, Allende, Saddam, Iran's regime, Yemen's Saleh, Kim-Jung Un, et. al. were/are no different in their situation. For better or worse, however way such leaders decide to treat their own people, they all understand the need to be vigilant against the constant presence & threat of Western intrigue.[/QUOTE]

    Well put.

    But in order to cover their asses, Gaddafi's family knew how to murder as well. It was one of the game-rules.

    Whilst heads of oil-companies running the business of North Sea oil never ever diritied their hands with such "tough-stuff". The difference being this: It is a matter of local mentality.

    Meaning what you describe above never happened in the UK or Norway over oil, but it DID and still DOES happen very much happen in the Middle-east ...
     
  12. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ANECDOTE

    A great many years ago, Gaddafi was invited to Paris for the traditional Bastille Day Parade. He was honored by a prime seat amongst other select politicians by then President Sarkozy.

    Then, Sarkozy invited to meet with him in the Elysee Palace (France's "White House"). Gaddafi asked the he be able to pitch-up his tent on the palace grounds, and was allowed to do so. The denouement of this trite little story is that it is coming to an historic terminus. That is, Sarkozy is going before a judge for having obtained illicitly funding from Gaddafi to finance his reelection campaign.

    France has never needed oil like other countries. It needs oil to produce gas for cars. But France has Europe's largest implantation of atomic-plants to generate the electricity that it needs for all other uses. It's interest in purchasing oil is, yes, diminishing as more electrified-cars are being built and sold to the French public. But that demand though not miniscule is nothing like, say, Germany's. (And, much of that oil is coming from Russia, not the middle-east.

    Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece are Europe's most dependent countries as regards Middle-east oil due to closer proximity to the source ....
     
  13. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    It doesn't matter to what extent Western (U.S./European) nations convert to electric vehicles & green energy (or nuclear energy) within their own borders. They still rely heavily on revenue from foreign resources & labor to support their economy, and to maintain their infrastructure & standards of living...particularly from foreign oil. In fact, a national conversion to greener energies would allow these nations to spend foreign business/investment revenue on other things...like making war & plundering more resources overseas.

    Despite France's limited domestic oil reserves and production, the French oil industry is an important actor in world energy markets. Major oil assets of French oil companies are located in the North Sea, Africa, and Latin America. French imports come primarily from Saudi Arabia and Norway, followed by the United Kingdom, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, and Russia. [...] Because oil security has been such a concern for French energy policy-makers, there is a French law allowing the French government to refuse to close a refinery if it believes its supply or price security is at risk. Essentially, this gives the French government veto power over EU legislation regarding refineries. This could become an important issue as the EU's environmental standards are strengthened.

    See also France's oil consumption graph from 2006 - 2018.
     
  14. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well put.

    But in order to cover their asses, Gaddafi's family knew how to murder as well. It was one of the game-rules.

    Whilst heads of oil-companies running the business of North Sea oil never ever diritied their hands with such "tough-stuff". The difference being this: It is a matter of local mentality.

    Meaning what you describe above never happened in the UK or Norway over oil, but it DID and still DOES happen very much happen in the Middle-east ...[/QUOTE]

    That would be because the Western nations (ie, white culture) have a history of being the invaders & benefactors...while the Middle East & other weaker nations are the targets & the losers. One could view the West as a global mafia crime syndicate that shakes down foreign nations for protection money.
     
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  15. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I like medicare because my clinic is not 'government run', my care is just paid for by the government. The clinic still has to compete against other clinics.

    I don't think Americans want a government run hospital like the VA, but for everyone.

    Single payer is the answer, and private insurance should be allowed. America is about choices.
     
  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think they should have one that betters their lives. And that is most certainly not the kind run in the US today.

    From here: Rankings of world's best healthcare systems

    *That same study done in the 1990s actually put France as Number 1. What a shame that comedown has been for the French people. And still, consider the difference today in life-span of the US vs France: 78.5 - 82.9 ...
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I do. What France and the rest of Europe got wrong, was to NOT diminish the Value Added Tax on hybrid and fully-electric cars. That's largely because of a first-class epidemic that must be managed preferentially. Moreover, since a very large percentage of the workforce is employed in manufacturing cars, then the companies are under government pressure NOT TO REDUCE PRODUCTION - and therefore not to increase prices. (That policy will change very, very soon as the companies rid their accumulated stock. But that will take only the summer months to accomplish.)

    Your history about Gaddafi is "old hat". He's dead and gone. And yes, quirky as he was, he insisted upon setting up his tent in the garden of the Elysee Palace (France's "White House") when visiting the French President a long, long time ago. Libya for France and most of Europe is ancient history.

    Cant imagine why you are dwelling upon it. The oil-supplies are regular and damn few people care about the East-West division of the two "political houses". Largely because "OIL IS OLD HAT"! The developed world will be rid of it in another decade at most, having been replaced by sun-power and other "natural energy sources". Even for airplanes - an experimental small airplane powered by electricity is already flying in NASA-testings - see here ... !
     
  18. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    Well too bad.
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lol. And here is the authoritarian argument without its window dressings. ^
     
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  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not necessarily true. Nurses opposed ObamaCare because they knew the system would not have enough money to pay nurses the same amount for the same amount of work, and instead what would have ended up happening is nurses would have been expected to work more (and been overstrained) without their pay being increased much. (Nurses are already kind of overstrained)
    ObamaCare sought to cut reimbursements as a cost-saving measure.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  21. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    Hey if I gotta pay for govt stuff that I don't want to then so do you.
     
  22. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You only have to pay for stuff you don't want because 51% of the population are similarly using that fallacious logic against you.

    That makes you part of your own problem.

    Become part of the solution. Vote for people to pay for their own **** :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  23. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    There's also the fact that I care about things other than myself.
     
  24. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's very admirable. What does that have to do with this discussion?

    Are you inferring that if I'm not forced to help others, then you won't be allowed to help others?
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  25. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which is kinda-sorta stoopid given that the life-span in Europe (with a national healthcare system) is four years longer (83) than in the US.

    You wanna live a shorter life? That's YOUR choice ... !
     

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