Why MLK was NOT Christian

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Warm Potato, Jul 26, 2020.

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Do You Believe MLK was a Christian?

  1. YES

    15 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. NO

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Strong points throughout. Thanks -

    To me, Matthew 25 is stronger than the golden rule.

    To me, the golden rule has two significant deficits compared to Matthew 25:31-.

    First, the golden rule applies to those withwhom we interact. That's a serious limitation as the followers of Jesus point out in those verses (and subsequently corrected by Jesus).

    Next, it invites application of the law, mores and other bases of judgement. For example, I might say that I would expect to be treated as per the law, so that is justification for my decisions regarding this person withwhom I'm interacting. Or, I might say that I would expect to be treated as society treats people in my condition, as that is deemed to be right - a limit on what I would expect, thus justified in treating others.

    Matthew 25 doesn't allow for that. It suggests that we must be searching out those who are poor, those who are in hospitals, those who are in prison and providing them with what they need.

    By any comparison, the golden rule is far more passive - I can accommodate the golden rule by staying home! And, it is at least susceptible to being significantly NOT helpful simply by recognizing the mores of the society.

    I don't know a catchy and succint encapsulation of Matthew 25:31- like the golden rule enjoys. But, I think it is FAR more important as a statement of duty.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what your point is here.

    Are you suggesting this is a justification for misogyny today?

    To me, the Eden allegory is about describing original sin, pointing to a fundamental type of problem with human beings that we do see throughout human history, certainly including today and not even slightly limited to the characters in Eden.

    As such, it seems to be pretty much on the nose.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, I think you are being WAY to Christian centric here.

    The fouders saw ANY religion as needing to be separate from government/economic system. It's certainly true that they were all Christians. It's certainly true that they knew of many opposing factions within Chrisianity. I's certainly true that they were well aware of nonChristian religions. But, the fact of a general Christian orientation of the majority did not counter the importance of separating religion and government.

    We didn't get rights from God. Through the Bible, we get DUTIES. Jesus never spoke of rights.
    This is just insipid nonsense.

    The Holy Roman Empire, the papacy, and the kings up through even the history of England were MORE than willing to kill people who didn't adhere to the correct religious opinion.

    You can try to count bodies.

    But, body count comparisons are NOT a measure of morality. And, they most definitely are NOT a measure of economic systems, either. Let's remember that capitalsim can kill citizens just as easily as communism can. The difference WE have created for our better society comes through the controls we place on capitalism and the measures we take to support those who don't win.
     
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  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Oh, please.
     
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  5. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If my word and my guarantee to respond with total earnest, sincere, and gentle honesty frightens you that much then I am certain that your reaction is a mockery to the teachings of someone who would have "turned the other cheek" against a dishonest and aggressive person.

    Between you and Martin Luther King I am betting that Dr. King is the true Christian, but you ............. well ................... humph ..................... you're not following Christ's example that's for sure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I see NO evidence that Jesus taught his followers to treat all nonbelievers as "anti-Christ".

    There IS a differentiation between non-Christians and anti-Christ.

    You may see anti-Christ as something you must go to war against. But, I don't believe Jesus was suggesting that you go to war against all those who don't share your religion - even if you picked the right religion.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Matt 25 - is good - hence why I use that passage in conjunction with The SOM when talking about works as part of the salvation formulation
    Matt 25 - is also a form of the golden rule - would you not want others to help you if you were sick .. no need to split those hairs - these are good works - but "right action" is also good works - or lack of not doing bad things.

    I agree the "lack of doing bad things" wanders into the passive - but - the general idea is maintained - "Don't do nasty stuff" - which while not encompassing all of "Good works" is part of it.

    That said - I am not fully sold on the "Pro-Active" necessity being "required" - by Matt 25 - although it certainly would seem to help given that passage - but don't want to go too far down the road of "indulgences"

    Your formulation - is one that is - at least in part - held by the Catholic denomination.

    Don't see how you are connecting the GR to law in a negative way ? Something did not make sense to me there - that this would somehow invite application of law/mores ? - not sure this is the case - but 2) why would this be a bad thing if it was ?
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking that an individual could decide that he would want what is to be expected of the law, mores, social views established, the current economic system, etc.

    I might say that if I were finding it hard to feed my family, I would want no more than equal legal treatment. I hear people state that on these boards.

    What the GR might mean is that I should give equal treatment to those who find it hard to feed their families. And, I might be fully satisfied that I've fullfilled a Christian view of works as I myself would need no more.

    Again, I think we hear this in politics and social opinion today. People say, "I don't need to help, because were I in those circumstances I'd be just fine and wouldn't be so greedy as to accept help. In those circumstances I would have everything one needs, and I'd be treated as I would expect to be treated."

    In contrast, Matthew 25 says I should search out those in need and provide for them. Comparisons to my own capabilities and the expectations of society dont enter in. If a person is in need, then you find them and help.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  9. Resistance101

    Resistance101 Banned

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    I have no idea what you're driving at. Have you actually read this thread?
     
  10. Resistance101

    Resistance101 Banned

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    Biblical passages of Leviticus 25:15, Deuteronomy 2:6, Jeremiah 32:10-12, and Acts 5:1-4 also demonstrate Biblical support for free-market economics.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Leviticus: Sorry, orders on how much and of what to buy an sell is NOT free-market, let alone capitalism.

    Deuteronomy: COME ON!! What was suggested is paying for what you take - instead of starting a WAR!!

    Jeremiah: The act of paying for what you purchase does NOT make it a free market. Communists pay for what they purchase, too.

    Acts: Ananias got caught attempting to perpetrate a fraud. In what way does that have anything to do with free markets???

    I don't see any logic to your post. Maybe you have some very different definition for "free market".
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is a general rule - that seems simple on the surface - but goes very deep. It is the base - and if you follow just that - you will be doing better than most.

    When you start to expand - you get into "Social Contract" theory - and Law - how a society should be structured.

    It is not that Social contract theory - and classical liberalism set out to emulate the Golden Rule - but - what happens- is that the GR - inserts itself into the conversation.

    If we make and agreement you and I - along the lines of "I won't kill your family - if you agree not to kill mine" being good neighbors and all.
    You then have what is referred to as a "Moral Obligation" to keep up your end of the bargain.

    If you don't want your neighbor to break his end of the deal - and kill your family - you then have a moral obligation to keep up your end of the bargain.

    Gov't is a necessary evil - to keep back the tide of Anarchy - In ancient times prior to organized Gov't - people banded into groups. Doing so for social reasons - but also for "Protection" - Strength in numbers.

    It does one little good to be protected from harm from the outside - if one does not have protection from inside the group - codes of conduct develop.

    Codes of conduct are of little value - if violators are not punished. Some authority then must be given the power to Punish.

    This power however is given strictly on the basis of "Protection from Harm" - direct harm one person on another (rape, murder, theft).

    In giving some authority this power we enter into a social contract - we will give you this power - so long as you don't abuse it - we will observe laws - so long as these were the laws we agreed to and that the law is applied equally .

    Don't do to others what is hateful to you - (BOLD) - you give the oft used but really bad argument - "That is not hateful to me so I have no problem with laws against it"

    Your mission - should you choose to accept it - is to figure out why this is such a bad argument - Ponder Ponder.

    "If you don't want others trying to punish you for things you like to do - then do not punish others"

    "If you don't want others forcing their religious beliefs on you through physical violence = LAW , then do not do the same to others.

    The question of a referendum is not "Do you like Pot or not" - the question of a referendum is "Do you have sufficient justification to use physical violence to prevent others from smoking Pot"

    "I don't like it" is not a valid response
    "God doesn't like it" is not a valid response

    Belief in freedom of speech is not belief in freedom - "only for speech you agree with" - Everyone believes in that. Belief in freedom is belief in freedom for others to do things you may not personally like... If you don't believe in freedom for ideas that you disagree with - then you don't believe in freedom of speech.

    and if the action does not involve protection from harm - "Direct Harm" - one person on another - The Gov't has no legitimate authority to restrict such behavior. "Of its own volition"

    This all comes out of the Golden Rule - it is the principle on which the founding principles are based - or vice versa -- they are intertwined.

    A happy union between Church and State :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  13. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Apostle John spoke of the spirit anti-Christ. He did not apply that to unbelievers. He applied it to those who purported to KNOW and led others astray. That, I believe would apply to anyone who assigns the term "Christian" to ones who purport to earn it through works (like joining an organization.)
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Were not you the fellow claiming Jesus was not a a free market economist over a collectivist ? -

    Abject nonsense claiming some OT Passages represent the teachings of Jesus - aka "the Rule breaker"
    and just s silly citing acts.

    One part that you might want to point to is when Jesus feeds the poor :)
     
  15. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Unitarianism was originally a universal term for all Christian sects that believe in a singular God, and reject the idea of a trinity. for the most part they believe Jesus was a prophet not a god. Thomas Jefferson for example believed that Jesus was a man who was inspired to spread a message by God, but that he was not Divine himself.
     
  16. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It has been speculated Jefferson night have become a "Believer" as he approached deaths door. His buddy John Adams might have had a hand in that. Unitarias today are all over the map.....disallowing much of the NT.
     
  17. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Jefferson spent the last decade of his life ripping apart the King James Bible to create his own version of the Bible with leaves out all mention of the supernatural and the Divinity of Christ. The last few years of his life many of the letters he wrote dpecified his Unitarian and deist religious views.

    He always considered himself a Christian, in that he believed in the moral teachings of Christ, but he never considered Christ to be divine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I stated how Matthew 25 is stronger than the golden rule. That doesn't have to do with government and you didn't address this point, preferring to go off in some other direction.

    I don't know what you are trying to do in the above. It LOOKS like you are trying to credit Jesus with kicking off government. But, government has been around as long as mankind. And, it remains that Jesus was all about duties, NOT about rights.

    The golden rule was presented by Jesus as a duty his followers must fulfill. It is not about rights. Jesus didn't advocate rights and certaily did not confer them. By contrast, those living under Roman rule at the time DID have rights.

    The happy status of church and state is that our founders were wise enough to totally separate the two. In fact, we could not have all the rights we have without that separation.
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am not trying to credit Jesus with Gov't - I don't credit him with the GR either - as that would be silly.

    Matt 25 is the golden rule :)
     
  20. Resistance101

    Resistance101 Banned

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    Maybe you have a reading comprehension problem.
     
  21. Resistance101

    Resistance101 Banned

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    You mean like this? ...

    https://fee.org/articles/biblical-roots-of-american-liberty/
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is the second time - What part of 'Against Forum Policy" did you not understand first time round ?

    If you think there is something interesting from a link - then post from that link -and comment.

    Otherwise - it is pointless to open your link - because I have no idea what I am supposed to be looking for.

    So get a grip - and get an argument.
     
  23. Resistance101

    Resistance101 Banned

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    I did make a comment. You couldn't read it? Was it not an extension of a comment already made where you wanted more info? Se Habla Ingles?

    You and I both know that NO answer from me is going to be sufficient. Right? Why confuse you with facts? Your mind is already made up. Why are we even having a discussion between us?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    If so, you might have posted something beyond ad hom.
     
  25. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no, I'll blame Adam too if it will make you happy.
     

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