Gun registration

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by cirdellin, Aug 17, 2020.

  1. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    Nothing can be removed from owners that was purchased legally as long as Article I remains in the Constitution which forbids ex post facto laws. The only hurdle is NOT the 2nd Amendment, regardless of the clueless opines of Millennial journalists.

    So-called "assault weapons bans" have never banned semiautomatic rifles outright. The "Assault Weapons Ban" was one of those - it just banned certain types of aftermarket parts such as pistol grips and bayonet lugs and IIRC it may have also banned a short list of specific models by certain manufacturers, leaving others untouched. It's all smoke and mirrors, grandstanding for the emotional children quivering and wanting a quick-fix in lieu of developing adult coping skills regarding inherent risks in living free.
     
  2. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    What is the subjective standard to which Constitutional rights should be doled out here?

    Also, far more die by drunken driving than mass shootings yearly, so how about we start banning booze or having strict booze registries and restrictions on booze purchases? 88,000 a year die from alcohol abuse. It sure sounds like A LOT of people need booze kept out of their hands. Nanny state time!
     
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  3. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thats why I agree with suspending the licenses of those with multiple DUIs. People are the problem, not the guns or booze. Look what happened when we banned booze? We created powerful criminals.

    Rights should never be doled out; they are there for everyone. Rights should only be denied to those who have violated the rights of others.
     
  4. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You must hang out with some odd people.
     
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  5. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really, are you that non-understanding of firearms?

    Explain to the world how one goes about cleaning a loaded gun.
     
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  6. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Not really. They weren't stranger than most.
     
  7. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ Would your name happen to be "Clinton " by any chance ..?
     
  8. Sahba*

    Sahba* Well-Known Member

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    Not reasonable! (not Constitutional to set up subjective / arbitrary stipulations - either)


    shoot w/ whatever efficacy one has against an imminent threat! (additionally, a real strike against the notion of severely limiting mag capacity)

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-mom-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/story?id=18164812

    (.38 cal. George, lol)
    This mom only had a 6 shot revolver, 5 of which she landed on the criminal's face & neck area - pulling the trigger repeatedly now on a empty gun. Fortunately he then decided to run instead of besetting upon the now defenseless mom & children.

    Or should only those who can shoot out the 10x ring qualify for the exercising of their human & Constitutional rights of self preservation, with the use of a firearm... ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  9. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    How do you keep people from obtaining a loaded weapon considering, assuming they aren’t prohibited from owning a gun, they can purchase one. Then, if gun that is acquired is not loaded does that prevent it from being used to commit suicide? Can’t get ammo? If someone wants to commit suicide, they will, gun or no gun.
    As for someone being killed by someone negligently, because they aren’t following proper procedure is might be related to knowledge of gun safety or it might be because they negligently didn’t follow procedure and common sense despite have gun safety knowledge. I have heard of police involved in negligent discharges. Then too, negligence doesn’t just pertain to guns... periodically you hear of people backing over children in their driveways, leaving them to die in a sun baked car, or a hundred other ways people Darwin out themselves or injure others because of their negligence... no amount of training will work against instances of negligence or complacency. Hmm, the test to pass a driver’s exam? The lessons to pass it don’t guarantee accidents won’t happen, that vehicles will be properly maintained, or prepare a driver from evading road hazards in an emergency or dealing with skid recovery on ice.
    As for proper storage, many people, including myself do lock down their guns, but security is relative, and nearly any gun storage means can be defeated and is better considered as a reasonable deterrence not an absolute security solution. There are few locks I cannot defeat within a short time, a huge number using the small multi-tool attached to my key change with a couple added pieces and a quick (seconds) DIY means. Some security devices might require other means, those unlikely to be carried by an opportunistic thief, but means easily available anywhere tools are sold... the safes are deterrence, but not impenetrable. The same could be said of my combination safe at home.
    The question is, if I were a criminal, there would be a question, is the time and effort worth risk of discovery?
    For instance, I have gun safes in both of my vehicles to store my guns when I cannot carry them in a prohibited place, but I am under no illusion; they have deterrent potential, but a determined thief, given the tools and time could defeat them.
    I conduct firearms training. I always recommend learning gun safety, proper maintenance procedures, and generally recommend a continuance to the accumulation of knowledge, but, you can’t mandate that people and not have episodes of negligence or complacency. I often give my advice on securing firearms as well, including carry retention. I will provide my perspective on security and storage, but there is no perfect solution and no way to mandate a standard, which, by the way, if there were a mandated standard, it would be known to those of criminal intent that would come to the game prepared. As to keeping guns from those considering suicide? I submit, it isn’t possible to prevent suicide by locking up guns. I don’t buy the impulse argument as a norm, my research has shown me, that the impulse narrative is propagated more by those that are taken by surprise of a suicide... the victims often have been considering it long before acting, sometimes, meticulously planning their exit.
    Guns are tools with many uses. They, like many tools (knives, chain saws, etc.) can be dangerous if misused or used in careless and negligent ways... life is dangerous, you survive with knowledge, vigilance, and using the best tool you have, your registered (birth certificate, other forms of ID) mind. Keep it well maintained and safe from those that will misuse it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  10. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I did not intend to imply anyone committed suicide SOLELY because they had access to a loaded weapon. Nevertheless, I strongly believe that most, if not all, of them would have paused for half a second to rethink the decision. With a gun, it happens so fast that there is really no time. Again, though, as you stated, anybody hell bent on committing suicide will do it by any means necessary.
    Again, agreed. There is no excuse for negligence especially when a few more minutes of attention could have prevented a tragedy.
    I believe that MOST gun owners are responsible and protective of their weapons. I believe that laws only exist to keep honest people honest.
    Only criminals and would-be-criminals disregard the laws. For them, the time and effort is worth the risk to achieve whatever they hope to achieve. There are no laws that can prevent that because they will always find a workaround. I am more concerned about the ones that DO NOT CARE they are breaking the law because they don't plan on making it out alive (ie. school shootings, murder-suicides, suicide by cop, etc.).
    Of course. And, I assume you are repsonsible enough that you don't make that information known by displaying those gun safes to passersby. ;-)

    Anyone, with enough determination and time can defeat just about anything.
    I agree with you on these points as well. There is really no such thing as "suicide prevention" because mental illness is still very much stigmatized in society. People are treated horribly and locked up in hospitals for daring to say they are struggling and think death would offer a welcome reprieve from their internal pain. A truly suicidal person WILL find a way to commit suicide no matter where they are or what they have at their disposal to enact their plan. For this reason, I don't believe more gun laws are the answer. I think more training in how to deal with mental illness and programs to help people manage their lives would save more lives than stronger gun laws.
     
  11. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I as I said, I don’t believe in the impulse narrative. Anyone driving could act on the same impulse and cross a centerline or aim for a tree just as well. While it may have happened, I know of no suicide that was spur of the moment. Those of which I am aware, took time, intent, and often were well planned... ample time to reconsider.
    I would agree with the last statement. However, we have a paradox, one born of good intentions, but with unintended consequences. Given that anyone seeking mental health treatment might be placed on a list prohibiting them from gun ownership, it, alone with potential accompanying stigma might deter some from seeking help, help that might have resulted alleviating a problem, with the consequence of the problem festering until it becomes severe and the without treatment. So how many don’t seek the help they should have and then off themselves or another? Who know?
    The flip side is many these days identify prescribed SSRIs as having some effect on suicide by gun or homicide, justifying prohibiting some from gun ownership. So, did the drugs help or hurt? Is the problem the drugs or improper treatment? I don’t know, and think the jury is out.
    https://www.forensicpsychology.org/MarvastiHandout2019.pdf
    But to me that is a question for a different debate, one I have yet to develop strong opinions about because I have yet to see a compelling argument on way or the other.

    Back to the OP, a couple questions.
    Regarding gun safety training as a prerequisite to gun ownership, how would competency be tested? BTW, not only are their a lot of sources for a quick run through on the basics and most doing YouTube videos making gun safety explicitly... some doing so to avoid the inevitable snarky comments, but virtually every new gun comes with gun safety instructions along with instructions of the specifics of safe handling and safe maintenance for that specific gun. For used guns, the owner’s manuals are easily obtained from online sources, often, directly from the manufacturer.
    One rule I often suggest, if you don’t know how to safely check a gun’s status (if loaded), don’t pick it up without supervision of someone that does. Of course, to me, all guns are loaded until I have checked it’s status myself and not let the gun from my direct control or has an exposed empty cylinder or chamber.
    BTW, I once worked on a 1917 Lewis Gun, that was difficult to easily verify if a round was chambered or not, making the basic gun safety rules of trigger discipline and barrel alignment pretty important things to observe.
    As for marksmanship as a prerequisite to gun ownership, why? How many people suffer injury from poor marksmanship on an annual basis for that to be an issue. How do you improve if you don’t have the means to practice?
     
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  12. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    sounds like Jim Carroll.
     

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