I'm Not Giving Up The Watchmaker Argument , , , ,

My Faith Based Belief is that you do believe in a personal God.

Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about God is plain to
them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Earth and the Universe.

_____________________


Romans 2:15 says the requirements of the Laws of God are
"written on their hearts." So all men know there is a God that
created them.

_____________________


Psalm 19:1-4 says , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Note the particulars in Psalm 19:1-4
{1} The heavens declare something -- they declare God's glory
{2} The sky proclaims something -- it proclaims God's works.
{3} This proclaiming is a form of speech.
{4} Night after night knowledge of God is revealed.
{5} The heavens and sky do not use human-language speech.
{6} Yet their voice-message goes out worldwide to the ends of the earth.

Psalm 19:1-4 is also the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Earth and the Universe.

____________________________


Romans 1:18 says that humans "suppress the truth."
What does this mean? It means that all men know there
is a God, but they deliberately and willfully suppress this
knowledge.

Why would they do this?

Because the Sin Principle operates within them and they
crave above all else to "be their own god" and live their lives
based on the principle of Self-god-Hood and free from the
requirements of the God that created them -- they therefore
turn to Pseudo-Intellectualism and weave a web of surface
self-delusion that enables them to prop up the Big Lie based
upon their false and incorrect , , , ,

~ secularized Intellectualism
~ secularized interpretation and application of Empiricism
~ secularized Rationalism
~ secularized False-god-Science

Conclusion is all men know there is a God and there is no such
thing as a person that does not believe in a personal God.

JAG

 

They should have never told you that.
It is true that Psalm 14:1 says "The fool has said in his heart, There
is no God" --- nonetheless there is a better way to address a fellow
human being than telling him he is stupid. I would say you are being
unwise to refuse to believe in God. Of course I don't believe there is
any such thing as an atheist anyway. I have a thread here on that. And
when I write posts I assume that all men believe in God and I assume
that when they claim they do not believe in God, they are incorrect.

Not "suspend" your Intellect.
Rather submit your Intellect to the God that created you, in order to be
truly free -- as explained in my posts to you up-thread.

Whatever you put ABOVE God becomes your God and large numbers of
people do in fact put their Intellects ABOVE God and their Intellects
de facto, become their God. If they persist in doing this, they will experience
the perish of John 3:16. This is a core New Testament teaching --- John 3:16
is the heart and soul of Biblical Christianity.

False gods , , ,
Anything outside the soul's protection of John 3:16's Eternal Life is idolatry/
The False-god-Honesty will ruin and wreck the human soul.
The False-god-Honor will ruin and wreck the human soul.
The False-god-Integrity will ruin and wreck the Human soul

All three, and more, are examples of our human Self-Righteousness
and our human Self-Righteousness is a soul-destroyer and will
result in the "perish" of John 3:16

Sometimes Honesty & Honor & Integrity Can Be
Soul-Destroyers , , ,
We are NOT saved based on our "good works" which are such as
our "Honesty" and "Honor" and "Integrity" -- rather we are saved
by our renouncing our "good works" as the method and means of
our salvation and turning to Faith in Christ's righteousness which
is credited to our account when we come to believe in Him as our
Savior.

That's what "Savior" means. We have to be saved from something
and in the case of many people, they have to be saved from
trusting in their False-gods of , , ,
~ Honesty
~ Honor
~ Integrity
, , which for them is idolatry.

The Lord Jesus said clearly that you have to lose your life
in order to find it.
If you refuse to lose it -- in the sense of John 3:16 -- then you
will eventually lose your life forever.
What does that mean?
It means that John 3:16 presents all men with 2 simple choices:
{1} believe in the Lord Jesus as your Savior and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

Take a minute and read Revelation 3:20
You have some age on you and much wisdom , , you know
enough about the New Testament to know that I am not
presenting far-fetched ideas to you.

There is nothing far-fetched about John 3:16 and Revelation 3:20
both are very plain and simple truths.
Both are good for your soul too.

I never give up on a human being.
As long as you chat with me, I will tell you the truth -- at least every
now and then --- I do not do it every post -- but every now and then
I will tell you about the truth of John 3:16 and its ramifications
with regard to the great value and importance of your Eternal Soul.

You have a good mind. You are a very valuable creature, but you
will eventually perish apart from the Life-giving force of the Lord
Jesus.
"You will not come to me that you might have life"__The Lord Jesus
rightly told those Pharisees and Teachers Of The Law and they
perished too. And not just spiritually but also physically at the
hands of the Roman General Titus in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem
was destroyed by the Romans and the Roman Eagles -- the
Roman Army gathered and devoured the carcass of apostate
Judaism.

The Christian view is that it is the supernatural power of the Holy
Spirit that does all the "convincing" work -- and that He uses the
simple truths presented in the Holy Bible to "touch the hearts" of
men and to regenerate them , , John 3:3 , , , what the Lord Jesus
called being "born again" -- the spiritual "new birth." This means
that the Holy Spirit imparts spiritual life to our spiritually dead souls,
so that we can now understand spiritual truths and no longer consider
them to be foolishness.

____________

Once upon a time a very wise man was asked to deliver a speech to
a graduating class and he was asked to make his speech on the most
profound idea of which he was aware. When the time came for his
speech, he walked to the podium and paused and looked out over the
audience and finally at last spoke, and said , , ,

, , "Jesus loves me, this I know
For the Bible tells me so" , , ,

, , , then he returned to his seat and that was the end of the gathering.

_________

There is nothing in this world more profound that what the wise man told
the graduating class.

Best.

JAG

``

 

And you can't prove that a god exists. So your posts are the same as the ones you criticise. Prove your point - that a creator exists. Only then will atheists listen to you.

 

Exactly. He can't prove that a creator exists because it doesn't. I suspect he knows this, deep down, which is why he expends so much time and energy posting all this nonsense.
There's a lot of evidence that evolution is a correct description of reality, but he just ignores the science because it interferes with his world view.

 

"I AM WHO I AM"___God
The Christian position is that God is Eternal.
This means God never had a beginning.
He always existed.

Exodus 3:14
"God said to Moses, I am who I am. This is what you are to say to
the Israelites: I am has sent me to you."

Start quote.
"When Moses was commissioned by God to go to the Israelites with
a message from Him, Moses wondered what he would tell them if they
asked him what God’s name was. God’s reply is most revealing:
“God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say
to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you'"

This signifies the real being of God, His self-existence, and that He
is the Being of beings. It also describes His eternality and immutability,
as well as His constancy and faithfulness in fulfilling His promises,
because it includes all time, past, present, and future.

The sense is, not only I am what I am at present, but I am what I have
been, and I am what I shall be, and shall be what I am. God’s own
words about His eternality speak to us from the pages of Scripture."
End quote.
https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-God.html

God Is Eternal , , ,
~ I am what I am at present
~ I am what I have been
~ I am what I shall be
~ I shall be what I am

____________

"I AM" , , ,
"I AM"__The Lord Jesus
Compare what the Lord Jesus said about Himself:
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"__The Lord Jesus
John 8:58

"In the beginning"
"In the beginning was the Word {Jesus} and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:1

_____________

What about the idea that the Universe always existed?
The Christian position is that the God who always existed
created the Heavens and the Earth and the Universe that
did not exist until God created them. This is a Faith Based
Belief like the Faith Based Belief that you hold, you the
Great Man Of Faith with regards to your "Dice thingy."

JAG


``


``

 

"I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam," declared the existential philosopher, Popeye the Sailor Man.

 

Horse manure.

 

The concept of 'God' as intelligent designer, makes no sense.

 

"The Christian position is that God is Eternal.
This means God never had a beginning."

ok then, energy always existed, thus had no beginning

which is more likely, an all-knowing all-powerful God always existed and used magic to create everything

or energy always existed and just changed with time like it does today and can be witnessed doing

if God doesn't need a watchmaker, Energy doesn't either

 

My faith based belief is that you don't believe he/she believes in a personal God.

 

One man's "logic" is another man's illogic.

No one person owns the "Logic Domain" and therefore cannot logically
speak for humanity.

Neither can you logically speak for the 2.4 billion Christians who DO
believe that belief in God is logical.

Neither can you logically speak for the world's some 5 billion Theists
who DO believe that its Logical to believe in God.

Some 5 billion human beings would say that it is illogical for you to
say that "The whole premise of God isn't even logical when you
scrutinize it."

The world's Theists are projected to grow to 5.7 billion by 2050, and
so at that time, some 5.7 billion people will say that you are illogical
when you say, "The whole premise of God isn't even logical, when you
scrutinize it."

Psalm 14:1 also teaches it is illogical to say "There is no God."

JAG


``

 

I agree. JAG knows there is no God. Thats why he wont stop demanding that there is. He is not trying to convince us. He is trying to convince himself. Well said.

 

A brilliant rebuttal.
Your scholarship and your intellectualism is quite impressive,

JAG

 

One man's "sense" is another man's nonsense.

No one person owns the "Sense Domain" and therefore cannot logically
speak for humanity.

Neither can you logically speak for the 2.4 billion Christians who DO
believe that belief in God makes good sense.

Neither can you logically speak for the world's some 5 billion Theists
who DO believe that it makes good sense to believe in God.

Some 5 billion human beings would say that it makes no sense
for you to say "The concept of God as intelligent designer makes
no sense."

The world's Theists are projected to grow to 5.7 billion by 2050, and
so at that time, some 5.7 billion people will say that it makes no sense
when you say, "The concept of God as intelligent designer makes no
sense."

Psalm 14:1 also teaches that it makes no sense to say "There is no God."

__________


I destroyed your incorrect Dice thingy up-thread. Will you post "Horse Manure"
under that one too?


JAG

 

1) Did you mean Semantic Domain? That would make your statement accurate, if trivial.

2) They aren't assuming that they have a privileged position to delineate something like truth. Intelligence is communal, and we all share the commons, the intellectual space where we talk about the things that concern us.

3) Interesting, but also trivial.

 

There’s a lot to unpack in your post, but it would require a massive post which I have determined after doing one such long, multi-post response, I wouldn’t burden folks with again. However, there are a couple things worth comment.
First, many people do not have an understanding of statistics and often make the mistake of suggesting the calculated odds, of for instance, dumping a bucket of dice and having them all show sixes would take the number of times to accomplish as the calculated odds. In fact, it is possible that such a thing could happen on the first try; Nothing in statistical theory would consider that impossible. I once owned a pub in Wisconsin where the playing of bar dice was/is a popular past time. There are several games that are played with 5 dice and a cup. I played thousands of games in my time and I have seen a throw result in 5 sixes. But, in many games, a first throw of five sixes, despite the ‘Wow’ interest, wouldn’t necessarily make a win depending on the rules of the game being played (for instance 7-11-21).
As for the odds of a Rolex Watch coming from nothing... it happened, at least once. But, it happened because through the process of natural selection, billions of years, billions of generations of life natural selection yielded a species that developed technology as an adaptive strategy for competitive survival where the concept of time and the ever improving means of measuring time provided competitive advantage, ultimately resulting in the development of the status statement of a Rolex Watch. What are the odds of that? Does anyone suggest the Rolex Watch was the product of Divine intelligent design? Or, suggest the same for the next generation of personal status symbol, precise time measuring devices?
Odds... life happened, the Rolex Watch happened. That I spilled a glass of water this morning at a precise place and time in the eons of existence, happened.

 

As for the ultimate Watchmaker, the ultimate author of THE Intelligent Design, how would you know if it was that Author if you met it? Would the question of who designed the Author of this existence not occur, then, the author of that Author, then.... an infinite recursion of that question?
If one would suggest, you’d just know wouldn’t that suggest a level of Knowledge (not faith) of the infinite? Would that not carry certain implications of you.

 

No doubt you are the paragon of scholarship and intellectualism, right?

You're a legend in your own mind.

There's an old saying, 'never use a 10 dollar word when a 10 cent word will do'.

Same goes for pseudo logic and feigned intellectualism. There is only one appropriate response, which is a response in kind, value for value, for your post, which is, indeed......

horse manure.

 

No.
I meant "sense domain" --- sense as in the opposite of nonsense,
or put another way the "Logic Domain" -- no man owns the
"Logic Domain."
And one man's "logic" is another man's illogic.
What you call truth I may call a Big Lie.

You don't don't know what "they" are assuming.
Speak for yourself.

There is no such thing as "The Intellectual Community."
The so-called "Intellectual Community" does not agree on the
color of an orange and on little else either. Read threads to discover
the truth of what I just said. Listen to the contradictory chatter on
Cable News shows. Listen to the Republicans and Democrats
"eat each other alive" in Washington D.C.. and in all Social Media

Trivial to YOU --- not trivial to ME.
And not trivial to the world's 5 billion Theists.

JAG


``

 

A rolex watch is not going to occur from nothing, but I addressed this point. Reread my comment, but I'll restate it. A one celled creature ( or it's precursors leading up to it) with the right chemistry existent in some distant primordial soup, with the right conditions, could produce life, in a very tiny form, from the elements whereupon a transformation from the inorganic to the organic occurs at some microscopic level, when that occurs, if it happened once, it will happen again, until one occurs that can replicate, at which point we are on the long road to higher and higher organisms, and one fine day, millions of years in the future, we are climbing up the scale of evolution whereupon someone intelligent enough to make a watch is born.

That is the point. Therefore, 'the watchman argument' is simplistic and fails to grasp the greater picture.

 

No, what's true for a pair of dice, is true for any number of dice, the only difference being the size of numbers, noting that the size of any number, compared to infinity, is infinitesimally small.

All that needs to be true is that life is possible.

Well, we know it's possible, that we do know.

If it's possible, then, given infinity, it's inevitable.

Note, I didn't say 'rolex watch', I said life, and I didn't say 'big life'.

But, small life, very small life, indeed, when all the right conditions exist, very small life can occur in some ancient primordial soup, setting life on it's evolutionary journey, until one fine day, a homo sapien emerges intelligent enough to make a watch.

That is what you fail to grasp.

I, for one, endow the entire concept of evolutionary progress and life magically appearing in some primordial soup as a divine process, but it's not 'intelligent', there is no supreme being driving the process, it's just a spiritual process looked upon in it's entirety. Pantheism make sense, monotheism does not make sense.

IN fact, it's 'infinity' that is God, but 'infinity' is not an intelligence, it only exists in the abstract, just as math exists, only in the abstract. It is the ultimate source of all things, though, it itself, is no thing. It does not watch, it does not judge, it does not feel, nor think or plan, nor exist in any human-esque way, it exists only in the abstract, it's a no thing.

 

My Faith Based Belief is that you do believe in a personal God.

Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about God is plain to
them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Earth and the Universe.

_____________________


Romans 2:15 says the requirements of the Laws of God are
"written on their hearts." So all men know there is a God that
created them.

_____________________


Psalm 19:1-4 says , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Note the particulars in Psalm 19:1-4
{1} The heavens declare something -- they declare God's glory
{2} The sky proclaims something -- it proclaims God's works.
{3} This proclaiming is a form of speech.
{4} Night after night knowledge of God is revealed.
{5} The heavens and sky do not use human-language speech.
{6} Yet their voice-message goes out worldwide to the ends of the earth.

Psalm 19:1-4 is also the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Earth and the Universe.

____________________________


Romans 1:18 says that humans "suppress the truth."
What does this mean? It means that all men know there
is a God, but they deliberately and willfully suppress this
knowledge.

Why would they do this?

Because the Sin Principle operates within them and they
crave above all else to "be their own god" and live their lives
based on the principle of Self-god-Hood and free from the
requirements of the God that created them -- they therefore
turn to Pseudo-Intellectualism and weave a web of surface
self-delusion that enables them to prop up the Big Lie based
upon their false and incorrect , , , ,

~ secularized Intellectualism
~ secularized interpretation and application of Empiricism
~ secularized Rationalism
~ secularized False-god-Science

Conclusion is all men know there is a God and there is no such
thing as a person that does not believe in a personal God.

JAG


``

 

You keep quoting figures for Theists. It's clearly nonsense. Have you asked 5 billion peoples? Many of your Christians are simply 'Christians' for convenience. When they need to give a religion on entering, say, a hospital, it's easy to say Christian. Church registers contain baptised/christened babies/children who never again enter a church, or consider god. Their parents who present them and make promises to god to 'bring them up in the faith'.have never seen the inside of a church and will almost always, never enter a church again.
And your projected 2050 figure is simply speculation. What happens if some proves irrefutably that god does not exist?

Psalm 14:1 also teaches it is illogical to say "There is no God." No, it doesn't. Many of us have correctly reasoned that there is no god.

 

No, I merely extrapolated:

Extrapolate, verb:

extend the application of (a method or conclusion, especially one based on statistics) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.

Via extrapolation, we can conclude, very safely, that what is true for a pair of dice is true for any number of dice, given that nothing changes insofar as greater numbers of dice to affect the outcome beyond the idea that only the numbers involved grow larger. Remember, this is metaphor.

No faith is required.

 

The only logic you have offered me is circular logic.

Circular logic is illogic.

For example, someone tells me the reason he knows that God exists is because the bible declares it so.

So, "who wrote the bible" i ask?

"God did", is the reply.

that's classic circular reasoning.

It's pseudo logic.