I'm Not Giving Up The Watchmaker Argument , , , ,

Incorrect.
Your "nope, sorry" does not refute this , , ,
{1} You can have Free Will to commit a crime, and God
in His Mercy and Grace can work in your life in such
a way where you are prevented from committing the
crime while at the same time your Free Will is not
violated.

{2} Human fathers do this all the time when they raise their
sons. They discipline them so as to prevent them from
using their Free Will to do wrong -- while at the same time
the human fathers do not violate their sons' Free Will.
You know this is true.

JAG

``

 

You have shown that what you think is free will is in fact coercion, are you suggesting your god is coercive as well?

 

Todd, thanks for the info about Chuck Missler's lectures
and books.

Best.

JAG

``

 

Can people believe something that is not true?

 

Is that the plagiarist?

A Los Angeles Times article reported that Missler and co-author Hal Lindsey had plagiarized a portion of Miami University Professor Edwin Yamauchi's 1982 book Foes from the Northern Frontier in their own 1992 book The Magog Factor. Hal Lindsey's manager Paul Krikac said Missler had written the passages in question, but conceded that Lindsey is responsible for the overall manuscript: "His (Lindsey's) butt is on the line."[13] After the missed attribution was acknowledged by Missler,[14] book shipments to bookstores were discontinued and all of the authors' proceeds donated to a ministry.[15]

Missler has also been accused of plagiarism of New Age writer Michael Talbot's 1992 book The Holographic Universe in his 1999 book Cosmic Codes: Messages from the Edge of Eternity.[16] Missler has also acknowledged this as missed attribution and has since publicly apologized. He said a correction would be inserted in all unsold copies and the book itself updated in subsequent printings. Missler has donated all of the author's proceeds from the book to a ministry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Missler

 

So your premise is that God used to talk to humans - and regularly intervenes in the affairs of humans.

Does that about sum things up ?

 

So God arranges for someone to lie to achieve his ends. Great.

 

Quoted for context.

Your Spin
Your incorrect Spin on what I wrote.
I never said a single word that even hinted at that conclusion,
All that is YOUR Spin.
My view is that morality DOES include
Honesty
Honor
Integrity , , ,

, , ,but when those 3 become substitutes for the God that created us, then
those 3 become , , ,

~ False-god-Honesty , , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Honor , , {as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Integrity , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}

Whatever we put IN PLACE OF God --- becomes our False-god.

More incorrectness.
I have not written a single word of renunciation of Honesty,
Honor, and Integrity.
All of that is your personal Spin because in my view you do
not emotionally like to hear the Truth about the , , ,

~ False-god-Honesty , , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Honor , , {as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Integrity , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}

Decided to lose your intellectual approach did you? And decided to
make it personal and call into question my personal moral character
and my honesty -- just because I dared to all your attention to your , , ,

~ False-god-Honesty , , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Honor , , {as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Integrity , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}

"how can your word for anything be 'believed' and
taken seriously?"___An Taibhse

How would YOU like it if someone said THAT about YOU?
Where is that An Tabhse Moral Code now?
Where is your Honesty? Honor? Integrity? -- in you implying
that JAG cannot be believed on anything and cannot be taken
seriously on anything?
Your An Taibhse Moral Code will allow you to strongly imply
that JAG is a dishonest crook?

Hmm, , , the truth works just fine here,
And the Truth is whatever is put IN PLACE OF
the God that created us, becomes itself to be
a substitute for God and as such it becomes,
de facto, idol worship -- and THAT Truth
is unpleasant to have to face -- but it
nonetheless is the Truth.

That's good to hear because then we have no problem here
because the Bible does NOT contain any renunciation of
any good morals -- but it DOES contain a renunciation
of making Honesty, Honor, and Integrity into False-gods
making them to be a substitute for the God that created us
and putting them IN PLACE OF the God that created us.

All men know there is a God that created them
I stand on these Biblical passages , , ,
Romans 1:19-20
Romans 2:15
Romans 1:18
Psalm 19:1-4
Ecclesiastes 3:11

That's a strange comment to make in response to what I wrote.
that you are responding to.

Another strange comment in response to what I wrote.
"honesty isn't required"__An Taibhse
Incorrect assumption.
I NEVER said honesty isn't required.
THAT is what YOU incorrectly concluded from what I wrote.

Hmmm . . . what does your *******n mean?
Humm... what does your "would *******n a moral man"
mean?
More personal implied insults?

More incorrectness.
More of your personal Spin on what I wrote.
I NEVER said or implied that morality had nothing to do with
being saved.
I said we do good deeds and good works because we are
ARE saved --- and NOT in order to become saved.
See Titus 3:3-8 below that teaches exactly what I said.

"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived
and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We
lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done,
but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of
rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on
us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having
been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the
hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want
you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in
God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is
good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone"

Incorrect.
I NEVER said that.
I NEVER implied that.
THAT is YOUR personal Spin that you incorrectly put on what
I wrote because in my view you do not emotionally like what
I correctly called your attention to ---namely that our personal
good moral values like Honesty, Honor, and Integrity both CAN
and often DOES become our , , ,

~ False-god-Honesty , , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Honor , , {as a substitute for the God that created us}
~ False-god-Integrity , ,{as a substitute for the God that created us}

Wow, what does that mean? Are you implying that politicians are
crooks and that people who believe in God are also crooks?

JAG

 

RE: I'm Not Giving Up The Watchmaker Argument , , , ,
⁜→ trevorw2539, et al,

BLUF: The "Watchmaker Argument" or the Theory of "Intelligent Design" is predicated on the fundamentals that there is a "Supernatural Deity" which is at least as powerful and knowledgeable enough to create all that humanity surveys and all that humanity can imagine.

(COMMENT)

If the realm of the supernatural entity in a monotheistic universe is both "Omnipotent and Omniscience" is know as a Supreme Being.

Whereas an entity that is capable of creating "all that humanity surveys and all that humanity can imagine" is one level below that which is a Supreme Being (a lesser deity) and may exist in polytheistic universe with more than one supernatural being with varying levels of power, knowledge, and capabilities.

I emphasize, at this point, that once you open the door to the belief in the supernatual, similar to that of the superbeings in the Abrahamic Religions, all manner of possibilities avail themselves in the faith-based realm.

(WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT)

There is no reason to believe that "supernatural beings" have the same moral compass or ethics of a mortal. Thus, to a supernatural, there is no such thing as loyalty to lesser beings, concepts of right and wrong behavior, obligations to lesser beings, laws, good and evil, etc... And while an Omniscience of a supernatiral being may comprehend these concepts, to a supernatural being, there is no consequence an immortal faces from a mortal. An immortal with supernatural powers has no necessity to "arranges for someone to lie to achieve his ends." The deity just wills the end state. IF a supernatual being needs a human (mortal) "to lie to achieve his ends," THEN the supernatural is NOT a deity in the true sense of its meaning. Once you start to assign human fralties and characteristics to an immortal, you find the paradox that a moralt with no powers sets the conditions and limitations of a deity. That is contridictory.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

Yes they can, Cybred.
For example, some of the beliefs related to the
Religion Of Atheism can be untrue, for example
the belief that some atheists hold that humans
have the same identical ultimate-End destiny as
do Lions, Yard Weeds, Rats, House Plants, Bugs,
and Elephants as in ceasing-to-exist at death
as in Oblivion -- can be untrue.

The Bible teaches that all men have
an eternal soul that will live on after
death.
Have you ever read the short story about the
Rich Man And Lazarus?

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine
linen and lived in luxury every day.

At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the
dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried
him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw
Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him,
‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the
tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in
agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you
received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,
but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has
been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to
you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my
family,for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that
they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets;
let them listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the
dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the
Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone
rises from the dead.’ ”
Luke 16:19-31

JAG


``

 

No you have no idea what happens after death, why not be honest and admit you do not know?

 

Then you have just proven that atheists exist.

 

I'm not sure of the point of your post. The thread is about a monotheistic Creator. Omniscient, Omnipresent and every other omni. That a God - creator etc - should need to get someone to lie for him to achieve a result is rather human, don't you think

 

Incorrect.
By the way, , you have an interesting approach to "logic."
And you also have a rare gift.
You "see what you want to see."
This is Faith.
You are a Man Of Faith.
I like that.
Also your "logic' is very interesting and in my view you will
logically greatly appreciate the following , ,

"Oh freddled gruntbuggly thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
Groop I implore thee my foonting turlingdromes
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my
blurglecruncheon, see if I don't."___off the web

And logically you will also appreciate this , , ,

"Twas bryllyg, and the slythy toves
Did gyre and gymble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves;
And the mome raths outgrabe"
__From Jabberwocky

Best.

JAG

Thought For Today.
"There is no such thing as an atheist."___JAG


``

 

RE: I'm Not Giving Up The Watchmaker Argument , , , ,
⁜→ trevorw2539, et al,

BLUF: A true Supreme Being, the absolute creator, and the absolute "Omnipotent and Omniscience" → does not need a mere mortal for any reason or any purpose. The Supreme Being needs no other alibi, prophet, or proxy from humanity, when with a simple thought (will, whatever) the Supreme Being can imprint all of creation. And the Supreme Being is without the need for hommage from a mortal.

Humanity simply cannot describe the depth and expanse of a deity.

(COMMENT)

The transcendent supernatural Supreme Being is beyond any characteristic or attribute that can be assigned to a Supreme Being by a mortal. Nor is it even possible to understand that means which the Supreme Being uses to be aware of the universe (everywhere at once, in any dimension it chooses to create, in any arrow time and across all possible timelines. Nor is it possible for a mortal to even grasp the (for lack of a better word) experiences.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

Atheists believe that there is no god, you stated that people can believe things that aren't true so there you go.

 

Incorrect.
{1} Atheists do not believe there is no God.
{2} All men know there is a God that created them.
{3} Also people can believe things that are not true.
Both {1} and {2} and {3} are correct.

______________

My belief that there is no such thing as an atheist
is a Faith Belief and as such is "beyond your reach."

My Faith Based Belief is based on these 5 Biblical
verses/passages , , ,

Romans 1:19-20
Romans 2:15
Romans 1:18
Psalm 19:1-4
Ecclesiastes 3:11

Also when I speak about the Religion Of Atheism
there is nothing bad about the word "religion" so do not
interpret it as a bad thing -- its not a bad thing. I am an
adherent to the Religion Of Christianity -- and the
word "religion" is a good word and Faith is a good
thing. I pray that one day you will "come to it."
To Faith and that day may come. If it does you'll be
glad. Its really "cool over here" on this side. There is
a lot of good cheer within Christendom.
, , for example , , ,
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-view-of-the-future-of-the-human-race.574946/
, , and , ,
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-numerous-as-the-stars-in-the-sky-yes.572848/
___________

Also thank you for your interesting comments, you are
not an unpleasant person with which to chat.

Best.

JAG

``

 

As an aside , ,
"So there you go" is an interesting phrase.
My wife & I recently re-watched the movie
"My Big Fat Greek Wedding" and the Father
in the movie often used the phrase
"so there you go" to conclude his points.

Party on.

JAG


``

 

?Ok Ron.. you are just wrong.. the providence of the Koran is is all scrwed up.. I've been watching your replies and I can see no desire to attain enlightenment.. just obfuscation and misdirection and quite a bit of just plain old ignorance.. go get educated and check back in .. oh maybe ten years or so.

 

Speaking of "educated".
You claim to be a scientist; what is your field of expertise?

So, You Don't Believe In Noah's Ark? Guess Again!
Post #162
I am Christian and a scientist.. and I do believe in interspecies evolution.
Post by: ToddWB, May 27, 2020
in forum:Religion & Philosophy

 

Wow! Look what I found with a Google search:
https://www.beris.nl/2016/09/06/top-10-reasons-god-does-not-exist/
https://whynogod.wordpress.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Atheism-Why-Does-Exist-Explained-ebook/dp/B013ND7PD0
https://www.amazon.com/Why-There-God-Responses-Arguments-ebook/dp/B00O8YM3RM
You're right. Google is my Friend!

 

So when an atheist says they don't believe in god they are lying?

 

That's ok Todd I understand that your options are limited, either your god got it wrong in not making the Bible a preserved text or he does not exist. Neither a good option for a fundamentalist, challenges their faith and they do not like that. Islam just played it a bit better than Christians this time.

 

And without any proof there is 'The transcendent supernatural Supreme Being' all we have is the ideas of man about a mythical being. Everything is from the mind of man. There is no higher authority. I understand full well what you are saying but your thoughts are the thoughts of the human mind. If there were a supernatural Supreme being it would be completely beyond our understanding simply because we don't know what 'supernatural' really means in reality - just in the terms of man..

 

Typical. Don't you realise that many of us have been through the 'religious' experience, have spent years studying the Bible and its background. You simply don't want to understand that our experience is wider than yours. You stick to a book that is proven to be full of myths, errors. The Bible has certainly much wisdom we can all learn from, but it is not the divinely inspired word. Even Christian Websites stick closely to the Bible and often come up with answers to questions which, given a closer study of circumstances of the time, are clearly wrong. In fact, if they thought about it their answers often discredit the Bible.