Elderly People Don't Count

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by Lesh, Sep 22, 2020.

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  1. Have at it

    Have at it Banned

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    What does that have to do with your post that people just get food delivered?
     
  2. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't there a good reason for that?
     
  3. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some are also giving the benefit of the doubt that someone shut herself completely in her home and actually caught Covid from having one pizza delivered. How rational is that? Perhaps the ship has sailed, and sunk.
     
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  4. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Well, that depends on whether one just accepts the narrative or uses logic. To me it isn’t logical to facilitate the mass infection of the general public resulting in thousands of hospitalizations and exponential growth of the pandemic to protect the supply of commercial masks for healthcare. It’s like having the frying pan catch fire in your kitchen and immediately blowing the house up with C4 so it doesn’t burn down.
     
  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. A good case could be made for the ship having already been sunk. In the Mariana Trench. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  6. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I was replying to your statement that elderly people who can't shop safely can hunt or farm which seems about the silliest thing I've seen anyone say in this whole controversy
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  7. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your wrong......as usual.
     
  8. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't the science on the effectiveness of masks in real question back then too?
     
  9. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    We had the same knowledge of how masks work and their effectiveness then as we do now.
     
  10. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Specifically their effectiveness against COVID?
     
  11. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    The recommendation to wear masks was predicated on the same information we had when we were told to not wear masks. We now have concluded one controlled formal study on masks and COVID specifically. So far it has not been published. Hopefully the scientific community will present it some time very soon for critique of it’s methods and conclusions so those of us who wish to base our lives on good evidence from formal science can do so.
     
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  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    How do you know about such a study?

    "Formal science?" What other type of science is there?
     
  13. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Because I do my best to stay informed on the latest research. To be clear, it’s not a system wide efficacy study. It only directly addresses protection of the individual.

    Here’s some information on the trial.
    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04337541

    While I don’t have a dog in the fight, I think it’s important for everyone to be able to see the full study and evaluate it’s methodology and results.
    What I mean by formal science is actual well designed controlled studies. We can infer a lot of things about viruses and masks from prior knowledge. But there really isn’t any formal research on C19 and masks yet. I wish there was more.
     
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  14. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    As per post #238 above:

    I think I should add for clarification that evidence outside of controlled trials does have value. Sometimes other types of evidence are all we have.
     
  15. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Is a study the only way to get knowledge?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  16. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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  17. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    There is evidence that people with moderate to severe asthma are more likely to develop serious covid infections but those same people are largely exempted from wearing masks in most places. I find it curious how a lot of people who reject herd immunity don't seem to get that mask policies effectively are a form of artificial herd protection. Most of the folks dying seem to be the same demographics as those who don't have to wear masks. Whether masks work or not is not the end all and be all of sound policy. More aggressive social distancing may be the better solution though I am not sure the government can effectively enforce it. Business probably should go back to Senior Citizens only hours like they did for a bit during the phase 1 shutdowns. They could also try bifurcated access like back in the gas crisis days. If the last digit of your birthday is an odd number, you can only shop on odd number dates or something along those lines to help throttle crowds, especially on Fri-Sunday heading into the holidays.
     
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yes, well there this type of evidence which has come about in between the start of the pandemic and now, with regard to masks?
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  19. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    We’ve made some observations in some areas that mask usage and infection rates are correlated. And some observations there isn’t correlation We’ve applied meta analysis to knowledge we’ve had for years. We’ve denied aerosol spread in the face of evidence it existed. Then accepted that evidence. New knowledge? Not really that I’m aware of. There’s been a lot of CYA spin but not any real new knowledge that didn’t exist or couldn’t have been extrapolated from existing knowledge using logic.

    Consider South Korea figured it out and came up with a plan to work around mask shortages. And their solution wasn’t to tell citizens not to wear masks for weeks or months as the virus spread. Do you think they had some secret knowledge Fauci and Co. weren’t privy to?
     
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  20. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    "CYA spin?"

    Something about South Korea being a lot closer to China, where it seems that 90% of the world's masks are made, or at least were made.
     
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  21. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Sure. One excuse I’ve heard for not recommending masks early was we didn’t know C19 would spread asymptomatically or presymptomatically. Well, why would an “expert” not suspect it would? Other viruses we are very familiar with do. Influenza is most contagious 24 hours before symptoms appear. Asymptomatic cases of influenza are common and contagious. Same goes for coronaviruses that cause the common cold. Asymptomatic cases common and contagious. Also contagious before symptoms present in symptomatic cases. The narrative we had no idea asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread would be a factor is absurd. Experts assuming this virus would behave differently than other respiratory viruses in this respect is either a lie or gross negligence. Or CYA (cover your a**) spin. I can comment directly on the science not their intelligence or honesty. You can decide what the motivation was, but the science isn’t disputable.

    I don’t know that location is relevant. They had the same dilemma we did. A pandemic and far too few masks. They fixed the problem instead of lying about it. Instead of telling citizens they didn’t need masks they incentivized domestic production and subsidized purchase and distribution for the public.
     
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  22. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Are you a trial lawyer or something? You ask very specific relevant questions that lead to foundational truths when answered. I’m impressed. :)
     
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  23. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I think that I'm too honest to be a lawyer.
     
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  24. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But, you believe their guidance on the virus? What else are they wrong about?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  25. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    That is a false statement. I thought you were all about accuracy.

    Influenza is most contagious for the first 3-4 days after infections but only ONE day before symptoms appear

    Corona is contagious 3-4 days before symptoms appear.

    That is a significant difference...no?
     

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