A Very American Coup

cancelled; already addressed by Hericlitus

 

Jup Hasta la Vista Pig

 

Actually, I voted for AOC - and Sanders to the extent he understands MMT.

To build a community in which both economic fairness - meaning NO entrenched, generational poverty - and freedom are implemented.

 

You are quiet wrong about Germany and the EU. Germany has for more than 10 years run a surplus, it is the law in Germany, the black 0.
But in an emergency, the law provides the ability to run a deficit, borrowing money.
Germany has borrowed in the hundreds of billions, because of Covid. Germany and France lead the way, that the EU could do the same, for the very first time. It was a very hard fight.
The strength of the German Mark was a power tool for Germany and its industries. Manufacturing in countries with weak currencies and les labour cost, within the EU, was a power tool. Same with attracting very qualified workers, paid in DM, good as gold.
If you were going to Italy, Greece, Spain for vacation, the exchange rate made it dirt cheap, buy property for nothing.
The introduction of the Euro was extremly expensive for Germany, because of the exchange rate. If you had 10.000 German Marks you would end up with 5000 Euro. That was a wipe out and the prices for everything was 1:1
That was a serious hit to Middle class wealth, they call it still the Teuro.
French Eastern European and southern European countries, have now access to the German market, with the same currency, level playing field, but with lower production cost. Opened a new market for them.
High End industrial products from Germany gained a advantage and did rather well, but it forced the mid range and low cost products out of Germany. Advantage to those countries, with a serious disadvantage, because they never modernized their national system, from all the social programs, to tax code to what ever.
Kanzler Schroeder lost his election bit because of Agenda 2010, Social Demokrat/ SPD.
That was a rather painful cut and rework of the social system. Gave it a future, modernized it.
Disliked, by all means, but absolutely correct in the long run. They ran before Covid naturally black 0, profits in the billions.
That is what Germany and others have been asking and demanding, for example from, Italy or Greece.
Germany is not running the EU, its France and Germany and France is the more aggressive, all way has been.

I sure as a German would like Germany, the power house to lead the EU, but I am fine with France doing it and we supporting.

 

OK, differences of emphasis there, mainly. I too hope the EU can rise to the challenge.

Do you understand that sovereign currency-issuing governments can issue and spend their own currency, without taxing or borrowing from the private sector, if the resources are available for purchase in that currency? The world's central bankers are still refusing to accept it, and are content to hide behind the delusion held by the general public that government debt is like their (private citizens') own household debt, and that "taxpayer money" is "their own money, not the government's money".

So we see Trump yesterday saying he will not shut down the economy, because it would "cost" $50 billion a day, or a cool $1.5 trillion a month......

Sheer madness. Trump CAN simply order the lock-down of the non-essential economy, and fund the living expenses of all laid-off non-essential workers, by changing the digits in the bank accounts of the said workers so they can pay for food and accommodation (rents, mortgages etc) plus utilities, for the duration of the pandemic.
"Cost"?

MMT is certainly considered to be heterodox.....but this pandemic is proving its correctness, because neo-liberal orthodoxy will result in the bankruptcy of the entire global economy if the pandemic persists, even while there is no actual shortages of food and accommodation....understand now?

See the above; and the disgusting anti-trade position of the US, in relation to Huawei.

Yes...China refers to it as "socialism with Chinese characteristics (ie inclusion of profit-driven private enterprise).

Nonsense; in fact you have just described the US health system!

https://ellenbrown.com/2019/06/14/the-american-dream-is-alive-and-well-in-china/

"Over the last decade, American wages have stagnated and U.S. productivity has consistently been outpaced by China’s. The U.S. government has responded by engaging in a trade war and imposing stiff tariffs in order to penalize China for what the White House deems unfair trade practices. China’s industries are said to be propped up by the state and to have significantly lower labor costs, allowing them to dump cheap products on the U.S. market, causing prices to fall and forcing U.S. companies out of business. The message to middle America is that Chinese labor costs are low because their workers are being exploited in slave-like conditions at poverty-level wages.

But if that’s true, how is it that the great majority of Chinese families own homes?........

Those factors alone, however, cannot explain the difference in home ownership rates between the two countries. The average middle-class U.S. family could not afford to buy a home outright for their oldest heir even if they did pool their money. Americans would be savers if they could, but they have other bills to pay. And therein lies a major difference between Chinese and American family wealth: In China, the cost of living is significantly lower. The Chinese government subsidizes not only its industries but its families—with educational, medical and transportation subsidies."

I hope the Chinese government does throw out foreign junk producers like Coca-Cola, before the resulting diabetes and obesity epidemics take hold.

I see I touched a nerve...I wondered if I was dealing with a Libertarian ideologue.....

The fact is the "democracy" protesters in HK are nothing less than a front for radical secessionists...guess what, the island will be reunited with China in 2049, as per the law agreed with Britain.

I think you are probably better off avoiding politics if you are not free to argue politics, like the woman in China who said her husband is interested in following Trump's election antics, but she has a shop to attend to...

(and you of course are not a libertarian ideologue)...

So you don't live in the US and haven't see the (inner city) "neighborhoods like war zones" (Trump, in 2016).

China will eliminate filthy fossil-fuel industry by 2060. Biden has said the same in the US....but the Repubs will likely reverse that policy when they gain power again. Ah... the joys of 'blind-leading-the-blind' two-party 'democracies'.

You obviously haven't seen the homeless camps in Los Angeles; or the abandoned suburbs turned into slums in Detroit and Pittsburg, as those two cities failed to compete with Asia after the 1970's: Detroit's population decreased from 1.8 million in 1960 to 700,000 at the time of its municipal bankruptcy in 2010. Unbelievable, avoidable human catastrophe on a vast scale, courtesy of neoliberal orthodox economics.

Naturally Chinese wages are rising fast as it develops its own technology, a situation forced onto China by the US ban on Huawei etc. meanwhile China's local market is bigger than the US and Europe combined.

 

And therein lies the problem; for one nation to achieve a surplus, others must be in deficit.

Just as when a government (public sector) runs a surplus, then the private sector must be in deficit (not saving)....except Germany because it runs a trade surplus. Understand?

That happened everywhere in the West, as China became the world's factory for 'low cost' products; and Japan and S. Korea took over heavy engineering; hence the "rust belt" in the West.

Not everyone can compete and succeed in high end industrial products like Germany.

And meanwhile Germany has been ignoring infrastructure development, (and I saw plenty of beggars in Munich, and rubbish in the streets in Dresden; and there is plenty of social unrest in the east...low wages?) and France is suffering low growth and high unemployment...hence the yellow vest protests.

No doubt; I'm more interested in shared prosperity in all nations.

 

This is unintelligible.

Why are you changing the subject to China BTW? You do know that every Chinese enterprise is required by Chinese law to collect intelligence on behalf of the State if they are so requested?

I think referring to capitalism controlled by the State as "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is laughable nonsense on your part and this is never the position of the CCP. The position of the CCP (ask them to send you to political education school so you don't have to make this up as you go along) is that in Marxist theory no society can pass straight from feudalism to socialism and so there needs to be a capitalist stage of history. This is not a Chinese characteristic but refers to all pre-capitalist societies and their necessary historical development. It also applied to the USSR for example where in 1917 capitalism was very undeveloped and Lenin introduced the New Economic Policy. The CCP aims to unleash this capitalism but also to control it (as Lenin hoped to too). This will pave the way for socialism at some later stage. The Chinese characteristics refer to things like the extreme Han nationalism and the eulogizing of Confucius. That is because these two things are directly contrary to Marxism which would see them as reactionary so they are explained as variants of Marxism which only apply to China. These are key driving forces behind the modern leadership of the CCP.

It really will not be fruitful discussing with you if you make up lies and then just proclaim them as unassailable facts. Clearly you have never been to China. Your idealisation of China is silly and untruthful. Public healthcare is available in China - in the public hospitals of Hong Kong - not in Mainland China itself. It seems that not only have you never been to China but you don't even know any Chinese people (who lived in China) who would immediately inform you of this fact. Or that you are knowingly pushing this falsehood for some other agenda.

What? Are you aware of how many people smoke in China? I think ke kou ke le is safe.

You touched a nerve because you are posting lies. I am not free to discuss this with you except to say that Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is not an island, it already has been united with China and is part of China with the Chinese flag flying over government and other buildings, and the "one country two systems" agreed by Treaty with Britain, expires in 2047, not 2049. If you are genuinely interested, rather than acting as an uninformed agent provocateur, try reading the South China Morning Post if you want to find facts on Hong Kong. Try reading the National Security Law to understand what is happening in Hong Kong.

I think you are lost now.

I am going to end this discussion now as it's not really going anywhere. There is a reason why I won't really discuss Hong Kong or challenge your lies. That reason eludes you so I won't be discussing China with you any more. Particularly on a thread that has nothing to do with China. Who are you? Where are you based? Why do you have this obsession with China? Your agenda, like some paid government agency or Maoist sect, seems to be to inject an "it's better in China" narrative into every discussion. Even though I protect myself with a VPN, it would be reckless for me to discuss China further with you.

 

I am at a loss there are so many guilibles in our country.

I can only think trump is a master at playing on the fears of those that are extremely guilible. And it appears there are many.

 

Whites are losing power in America.
Those who suggest a coup of the people's vote are afraid that whites will lose more power.
America is not a country for them.

 

Is there any doubt how far tRUMP will take it. It's win at any and all costs.
He'd use the military if he could get them to back him.

He's the classic extreme narcissist. Losing is not an option.

 

Not true. He is the 3rd American president in history to be impeached.
None of them have been removed from office by the congress. But all 3 are impeached presidents.

 

I disagree. The RW values are predicated on white supremacy.
That is in serious jeopardy and the election win of a black skin president really really scared a lot of the white conservatives. They feel they are losing grip on the country.

 

Why is that a disagreement? The tyranny of the minority that they seek is partly driven by a shrinking white population. But you shouldn't underestimate how non-white conservatives will also join this movement (as they have been). Many of the militia that are emerging are not white supremacist and have non white members. White racists will always tolerate non whites who support their cover story. It helps them lie to themselves as well that they are not bigots. So just characterising Trumpians as white supremacist doesn't really help me understand why my Harvard educated mandarin speaking Asian super-cultured lawyer friend in California votes for Trump.

 

I guess I said I disagree, because whites are not in the minority. But they could be in the future.

I can't explain why your Asian Harvard lawyer friend voted trump, did he explain it to you? I am interested as to why?

 

Typical ideologue, withdraws from debate when confronted with reality.

OK, let's leave China aside, and see if you can redeem yourself and prove me wrong in the other points addressed (while acknowledging HK will be reunited with China in 2047, a century after it was invaded by Britain. Suck it up.)

So you are unaware of the debate re MMT in academia and among central bankers?

Even Mario Draghi said last year that "we should be looking at new ideas like MMT.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-23/draghi-says-ecb-should-examine-new-ideas-like-mmt

Draghi Says ECB Should Examine New Ideas Like MMT

In any case,we should certainly be looking at the homelessness catastrophe in the US, and bankruptcies due to unaffordable health care in the US; and citizens renting bed-rooms the size of coffins in HK, while "living out" in all other respects.

In other words, entrenched generational poverty wherever it occurs, due to systemic racism, or systemic unemployment, thanks to neoliberal othodoxy

[I mention China because its publicly owned central bank can directly fund social policy, and therefore displays some features of MMT (in which money creation occurs in both the public and private sectors), in contrast to reserve banks in the neoliberal West which are ultimately controlled not by government but by private banksters issuing debt to citizens.

So.... study MMT as recommended by Draghi.

Meanwhile you still can't see the idiocy of claiming there is a public 'cost' incurred as a result of closing the non-essential economy in a pandemic, said "cost" manifesting as crippling government debt? ....hence we have Trump fuming at the prospect of closing the economy which is necessary to save lives...

Think for yourself for a moment....the government has a treasury and reserve bank and can pay the bills of laid-off, non-essential workers as already explained. No 'crippling debt" need be accrued.

 

Reality is this: surveillance, arrest, restriction of liberty, prison. You live in an American bubble and can spout nonsense without consequences. I do not enjoy complete freedom of speech and I judge that corresponding with someone like you who eulogies China as a paradise on Earth, is potentially dangerous to my wellbeing. That's reality. You are a threat to me, either knowing or unknowing, but a threat nonetheless.

 

It's not a fundamental disagreement though is it? Just a difference in nuance. I mean I agree with your facts and I think its a major factor. Just not the only factor. And if you take away white liberals then the other whites probably are in a minority and it's the tyranny of this minority, plus some non white allies, that they are promoting.

My lawyer friend. He is very conservative, a member of the Federalist Society, and though he didn't like Trump voted GOP down the ballot (he showed his absentee ballot to me to taunt me - I did consider that he only voted GOP to actually taunt me but I don't think that's it). As an Asian he explained that he faces discrimination because Asians are expected to get higher SAT scores etc. so this made him anti-pc. But when I was in the South with him he was very concerned that he was an outsider (he messaged me once that by landing at Nashville Airport he had just doubled the Asian population of the city). I traveled with him to Germany and he had swallowed that "Eurabia" rubbish which is basically the anti-muslim racism from the Right that Germany in particular was under some kind of Shariah Law and overrun by Syrians etc.. Hamburg when we got there didn't really fit the drivel he had been spouting. A bourgeois, prosperous, liberal city was a real surprise to the "mooslems are taking over yewrup" trash that he had heard. So as I have tried to explain elsewhere, you get a lot of people in the USA who are smart but believe nonsensical things. This has been so for many years. They live in culture war bubbles. They honestly believe that their bubble is the overwhelming majority and that the other bubble is bigoted and stupid, or elitist and condescending. This is not a modern phenomenon.

 

I have invited you to point to the "nonsense" of my fiscal remedies for solving the ills of neoliberal economic orthodoxy, not to mention the 'crippling debt' that must be endured (according to orthodox economists), to saves lives in the pandemic.

You are declining to learn. I realize it might be embarrassing to reveal you have no knowledge of MMT, while in fact Biden may well be considering it (as is likely) if AOC has access to decision- making in the new government of the US.

(That's why winning the senate is so important; otherwise the Repubs will block much needed changes in funding for social programs).

But the attempted coup is dead now; Trump appears to be accepting that much.

 

Here is another reality:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...as-violence-erupts-at-trump-march/ar-BB1b1oWq

"DC police reported at least 20 arrests as of Saturday night but images on social media showed more people being detained as the night progressed.

The arrests were made on charges including simple assault, assault on a police officer, and weapons violations, officers said.

Four people were arrested for firearm violations, two for assault, one for not having a permit, one for assaulting a police officer and two for disorderly conduct, according to public affairs officer Alaina Gertz."

I said the coup won't happen because Trump appeared to accept the possibility that his court challenges will fail, during his recent public address.

But the damage has been done; as expected, Trump's 'Proud Boys' are now behaving like Hitler's SS thugs. How ugly this gets remains to be seen.

"I would rather die than give up my freedom"...the extreme RW mantra.

What freedom, exactly?

How is implementation of economic fairness, supposedly envisioned by Biden, a threat to their freedom?

 

You are on ignore which is very very rare for me. Nothing to do with Trump. Think about why. I am afraid of no-one. But I am a human being who lives in a real world you seem to have no comprehension of. I am afraid of you.

 

Let me name them: Nixon/Watergate had to quit;
Clinton/Lewinsky survived with a lie;
Trump/Russia-Gate was a made-up accusation by the Dems.
That's how I know it, but I am not an expert on impeachment procedures or aims.

 

Nixon was never impeached

 

No, it's not. I misunderstood your initial post.

I have voted straight party ticket a few times. Usually when I get disgusted with the party in power as I don't like when either party gets control. It's never good for American's. Just that party.

I am amazed at the nutty stuff people believe. It's like common sense doesn't weigh in to thoughts.
Fear rules many people's thoughts.
Radicals are radicals, be they Muslim, Christian, or anti gov't. Fear rules the thoughts.

 

The repubs you speak of, are mostly the same repubs in the Senate that last spring gave out the most free money in the history of the world?

 

Well you'd be incorrect on Nixon.
The other 2 you are correct. They were both impeached. And not removed from office by the Senate.