A Very American Coup

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Heroclitus, Nov 11, 2020.

  1. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    What a load of BS.
    Germanies surplus, not just Federal but State and Communities is based on strict spending law. By law they have to control spending and can not go on wild spending sprees, except for emergencies. Streamlined IRS, streamlined health, streamlined overall Government apparatus. Why do you think specialist from the German IRS worked for several years in Greece to help them overhauling their IRS.
    Italy has a outmoded bureaucracy, arcane, same for social systems, Greece, too.
    France same story.
    Those countries have systems that are more than a decade behind, that's why they can not make a surplus.
    German infrastructure spending, you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Social unrest in the East of Germany, because of low wages, from which fantasy land did you get that from.

    German companies use East Europe and Spain and Portugal as their lower cost production countries

    What a BS theory, if a government runs a surplus, the industry runs a deficit.
     
  2. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I wear your 'ignore' as a badge of honour.

    Pathetic, you think you can turn PF into a twitter echo chamber whenever you like, just so you can avoid having your world view exposed for the sham it is.

    You are scared of speaking freely in HK, because of Chinese intelligence? Well guess what, Assange has been crucified for reporting truth in the West, by the spooks in the CIA .

    ......."intelligence", the ultimate oxymoron, whose goal is the defense the power structure that maintains the economic disparity resulting in political chaos everywhere.

    "It's the economy, stupid".
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  3. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    It is economy. But it seams that you have a very screwed up view how economies work.
    "Understand"
    I love comments like those, they reek of cult, made up mind and little knowledge..
    Blinders.
     
  4. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's true - but observe how Repubs will suddenly become fiscal hawks, when their man is no longer in the WH.....

    And as for "the most free money in the history of the world"; firstly, it wasn't free (though it SHOULD have been); it was borrowed from the private sector and has to be repaid, ensuring an excuse for public austerity for years to come: and secondly, it was inadequate which is why congress must return to deal with the same issues.
     
  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    So....Draghi has "little knowledge" of economics?

    Hmm....
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  6. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    The repubs are a shallow bunch. Flip floppers. Borrow and Spend. Everyone but them knows this about them.

    Why does it have to be repaid? If it's borrowed from us, means we can forgive the debt if we want. Well if congress wants. It's just numbers in a column, it's not real if the gov't borrows from itself, right?
     
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  7. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Ah...a debate; let's read on...

    "Strict spending law"..... the result of paranoia re the hyperinflation of the Weimar era.

    Fact: sovereign currency-issuing governments (with a treasury and central bank) CAN create and spend their own currency, if goods and services are available for sale in that currency, alongside money creation in the private sector.

    The constraint is the requirement that total spending (public AND private sector) must not exceed available resources and the nation's productive capacity. Nothing to do with maintaining government surplus.

    You can call that BS or a cult or whatever, but it is fact.

    Now the EU is in a difficult situation because the ECB is influenced by German "strict spending law" BS.

    That's why the issue of "spending limits" has ended up in the European Court recently, as EU nations' budgets come under pandemic stress.

    How often do I have to repeat: it's impossible for every nation to have a trade surplus.

    https://www.dw.com/en/economists-propose-massive-german-infrastructure-spending/a-41617164

    A well-timed new report on Germany's investment requirements has been released this week by Tom Krebs and Martin Scheffel, experts at the Universities of Mannheim and Cologne. Entitled "Public Investments and Inclusive Growth in Germany," the report, which was sponsored by the respected Bertelsmann Foundation, proposes major new public investments in three categories: Education, transport and digital networks infrastructure, and residential buildings construction.

    In addition, public investment in kindergartens and full-day schools as well as residential buildings would generate a substantial reduction in poverty and an improvement in equality of opportunity. It's an agenda which the authors describe as "inclusive growth."


    So.. it seems you are just another comfortable conservative, incapable of seeing the rest of the world...


    Note: Spain has been suffering a 'brain drain' ever since the GFC...and Portugal has half per capita GDP of Germany.

    Again let me repeat slowly..... If government runs a surplus, meaning tax receipts are are greater than spending, then the private sector MUST be in debt. (ignoring the external account/trade balance).
     
  8. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Draghi has his view of economics and his politics at the EZB, were questioned many times and still are.
    Everybody demanded of Germany to start deficit spending for many years, just to keep the EU economy going.
    Germany refused and pointed out, that it is the only country in the EU, which has a law demanding balanced budgets.
    Everybody demanded spent more money on infrastructure. What for, it has a huge back log of projects, which have to go through the courts, about 10 years of projects. Its not a dictator ship, its about the law which gives people a right to voice their concerns.
    Infrastructure projects might concern their lives, quality of live.

    Explain to me, why can France not do it. People are as well educated, they have a outstanding industry. They actually dominated Europe for a long time, what happened. What is Macron struggling with, reforms, he has the right ideas, but the Yellow Vests and so on will do what ever it takes to modernize France, because they might loose some of their rather cushy privileges.
    Why did I leave West Germany, 12% unemployment, 10% was good for years. Than came the Unification, which cost trillions but did not produce any jobs, a short time boost, till the East Germans had spent all their previously useless savings. But had to be absorb by the social system, in which they never had paid in. Look at the data from that time.
    Germany was at the edge of todays Italy.
    Bloated, outdated, needed serious over haul, or go down the drain.
    It did it.
    The most hated reform ever in Germany, still, for some.
    Schroeder went down the drain.
    But Germany became a success story and businesses left and right bloomed, government made money businesses made money, employees made money and all of their social systems made money, big time.

    How does that fit into your theory.

    If you want to know about the difficulties of building a infrastructure program in Germany, take a look at Stuttgart 21, its just mind boggling, from politics, environmental laws and engineering.

    Understand, oh well, we have been there, .....................................
     
  9. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Too true.

    It's borrowed from investors who want to earn interest on their money.

    In the case of this pandemic, the government doesn't NEED to "borrow" from itself, because the (Federal) government has its own treasury and reserve bank, and can directly issue the funds to pay for the necessary covid-19 rescue package.

    But Jerome Powell refuses to recognize that fact: indeed he recently commented that his worst nightmare was an increase in interest rates which would render the huge increase in Federal covid-related debt un-repayable.

    Go figure...
     
  10. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Inflation dictates the interest rates.
    There's no real inflation when the economy is in the tank as it would be if they didn't stimulate.

    The one thing interest rates really will try to avoid is deflation. Deflation will sink an economy faster and be more dangerous than any inflation.

    As long as we can control our own currency and other gov'ts of the world trade in US$, we are ok. When we lose that, we will be in extremely high inflation and we will no longer be world's best or leader. IMO.

    I am not an economist in any form. An engineer by trade.
    But I can see how valuable the US$ is as the world's trade currency.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  11. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Ooooooooooooooooch please Weimar Republik. I am sorry,

    You do not get it Kindergarten or what ever are they are standard, they are called KITA. Live Standard, like Free Schools and Colleges and Universities.

    Why should the private sector be in debt if the government makes a profit. Explain it to me in your own words.

    How often do I have to explain to you, that a trade deficit is based on ideas and competition. If you are good or cheaper, market laws.

    Germany has no natural resources, besides wind, sun and water, explain that to me, how that works, the resource thingy.
    Meaning tax recieps are greater than spending, the private sector must be in debt. What a load of BS.
    Germany has run up a over 10 years yearly profit, from communities to Federal, in the billions, every year, including its social systems.
    Its private sector, despite of what you claim, did rather well, I would say, rather profitable, flush.

    I could add a " Understand " but I will not.
    Its just a.....................
    You will understand, I guess.
     
  12. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Because reserve banks are no longer able to direct the economy via monetary policy (with interest near already zero), orthodox economists are all jumping on board with the necessity for governments to use fiscal policy (ie deficit spending) to support the economy.

    But you don't have to dig very deep to discover, among these orthodox economists, a dread of inflation in the future that would require - according to orthodoxy - reserve banks to lift interest rates.
    They really should study MMT, to learn how the public sector can intervene to influence allocation of goods and services at zero interest rates (provided the nation's productive capacity is maintained).
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  13. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Inflation is always a big concern. No doubt. But deflation is to be avoided at all costs.
     
  14. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks, dairyair, now I know.:)
     
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  15. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I heard... I was dead wrong!
     
  16. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    There are three sectors in the economy: Public, private, and external (trade account).

    In our orthodox monetarist neoliberaal economies, the public sector is funded by taxing or borrowing from the private sector.
    Leaving aside the external sector, the only way for the government to be in surplus is to cut spending or raise taxes.....which is what the IMF demands of countries that are unfortunate enough to require an IMF loan....

    Now, looked at from the macro-economic view (ie, the whole economy) if the government cuts spending or raises taxes, the private sector's indebtedness must increase - or private savings must decrease, to pay the higher taxes - and firms must deal with decreased demand as consumers have less money to spend.

    BUT, in the case of nations (like Germany) with trade accounts in surplus, they have more capacity to maintain government spending.

    Exactly. That's why Detroit was destroyed...literally. See...not everyone, whether companies or nations, can win in a free trade competitive environment. Detroit should have deficit spent to transition to another economic entity of some form.

    The reasons why some nations are more able to exploit their intellectual resources are complex....but there's your answer re the "resource thingy". (Some say Japan and Germany had an advantage after WW2, in that they had to build brand new manufacturing from scratch, rather than persisting with old methods...)

    What I claim? I would say a "need to reduce poverty" is not consistent with "doing rather well". Why are the two economists quoted, and also Paul Krugman more recently, urging more public spending in Germany? Here is a reason:

    "In addition, public investment in kindergartens and full-day schools as well as residential buildings would generate a substantial reduction in poverty and an improvement in equality of opportunity. It's an agenda which the authors describe as "inclusive growth."

    Like I said, 'comfortable conservatives' generally don't bother to understand much at all, because they are...comfortable.

    But if you want to learn something, here's a good start: "The Deficit Myth" by professor Stephanie Kelton.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  17. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
  18. PJO34

    PJO34 Well-Known Member

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    Biden is already President-elect. He won.
     
  19. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    Then they were all political dog and pony shows like the one Pelosi orchestrated.
    Oh dear.
     
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  20. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  21. PJO34

    PJO34 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that this is news to you means you really need to stop watching bizarro-world Fox News and OAN and watch news that documents reality. See, in bizarro-world Fox News, mighty President Trump and his loyal, eagle-eyed counselor, Rudy Giuliani are documenting millions of illegal votes and they will prove Trump won the election and after making America great again, the American people will force Trump to remain president for the rest of his life. In reality, the election is over and has been for over a week. Trump lost bigly. There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud, and Biden will be inaugurated on January 20th and the free world will rejoice.
     
  22. PJO34

    PJO34 Well-Known Member

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    Keep throwing stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. It is all nonsense.

    Here is the right-wing playbook:

    Right-Wing Tactics 101: Step #1: Create nonsense claim Step #2: Get right-wing newspaper or website to write story with catchy headline Step #3: Gullible people spread the "news" and right-wing outlets force feed the nonsense to other gullible people Step #4: The "claim" is proven to be nonsense and nothing comes of it (i.e. no indictments, no arrests, no jury verdicts, etc.) Step #5: Gullible people forget about the nonsense story and the process starts at Step #1 again with a new nonsense claim

    Please get back to me when prosecutors are indicting someone. Any idiot can make up a claim of voter fraud, and many idiots are doing just that.
     
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  23. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    "The feat is drawing praise from far-flung corners of the Italian American business community, which sees the thanks of a grateful administration as key to the revival of the community’s political influence" .

    Wow, nice indictment of the "Italian American business community"....

    Anyway; let's see if Merloni "flips", surely Trump could not resist the offer?
     
  24. Kat236

    Kat236 Well-Known Member

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    Finally!! A rational comment that has been researched and is very intelligent.
    Quit staring at your phones and stop listening to main stream media and things might look differently.
     
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  25. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    The attack on democracy is collapsing under the weight of it's insanity.

    The legal challenges to the validity of the election have degenerated into a farcical comedy:
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/16/trump-campaign-legal-shake-up-436924

    The Georgia Sec of State is complaining about pressure from his fellow Republicans to cheat, and that includes death threats. What I found curious about this is how the hell did an honest guy wind up being Sec of State in Georgia??? I feel like I've stepped into an alternate Universe...

    Covid is about to get worse than it was in the summer. That will be educational for those among us that are not sociopaths... I saw an interview yesterday, a NY nurse working in El Paso, she's on the edge of a mental breakdown. When NY peaked, most of the country had not. Now, much of the country is in the sh*t, and there is no big reservoir of medical personnel to come and help. And that's on top of all the other problems you get when medical systems max out. Some hospitals are already doing triage. (Translation, the hospital can't handle the situation and have a room where they put the really sick patients in to die.They don't have the resources to treat them.)
     
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