What to do with unwanted children?

People change their minds all the time. Parents who give up their kids for adoption change their minds from time to time. Why is it so difficult for you to imagine a person who once considered an abortion might change their mind about wanting to keep the kid after going through the seminal bonding experience of giving birth?

There are more responsible ways for her to avoid "the pain and physical damage of 9 months of pregnacy [sic]".

Sure, a good first step would be make it not cost tens of thousands of dollars.

 

This topic reminded me of a comedian I saw years ago. It's completely tongue-in-cheek as I believe abortion is nobody's business except the person(s) involved. Thought this conversation could use some levity.

Ted Alexandro

 

I never said they wouldn't. I said …"" Keep a kid one didn't want ? How nice for the kid...""

Not every child is wanted or welcomed.

So what!??? That does NOT change a word of my : ""... Workable options for you maybe....but the woman who had to suffer the pain and physical damage of 9 months of pregnancy might just disagree...it may not have been
" workable" to go through those 9 months, possibly lose her job, have to take time off work or education, be buried under medical bills...

We were discussing workable options of pregnancy....not contraception...

Well that step HAS NOT BEEN DONE YET...so the following still stands as what is happening NOW:

""FoxHastings said: ↑
... WELL, right NOW there are kids that aren't adopted and actually "age out" of the system....maybe those opposed to abortion should step up to the plate !!!!!!

 

It would provide a reliable facility to place kids without going on a foster snipe hunt.

 

I know, that's why we have foster care / adoption options. Those systems would definitely benefit from some improvement, but they're "workable" and could be scaled up to handle an influx in the case that we banned elective abortion.

The abominable immorality of this situation:
Doctor: "You're pregnant"
Woman: "Ewww, I don't want it. Can we kill it instead?"
Doctor: "Sure"
makes my stomach turn. At the scale it's been happening for decades now, it's far and away the most vile, evil thing our country has ever countenanced. If some women have to deal with some discomfort / pain for a few months, largely as a result of their own irresponsible choices, I consider that a rather small price to pay to (mostly) stop the greatest evil of my lifetime.

 

It doesn't have to be a completely either/or situation.

For some groups of children, in certain areas, a central facility (like an orphanage) might be preferable to foster care. This might especially be the case if it is the children themselves who get to choose, or they could wait at the central facility while they are waiting to be placed in a good foster home.
That way there would be less pressure to just place them into a home if there weren't enough good homes.

I do agree that simply changing the type of venue will not automatically solve the underlying problems/issues.

 

If that's the greatest 'evil" you've seen you are blessed....

If it makes your stomach turn then don't have an abortion but YOUR "morals" aren't everyone's.

BTW, abortion has been going on long before your lifetime...


YOU SAY "some discomfort/pain " ????????????????? EASY FOR YOU TO SAY !

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

• exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
• altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
• nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
• heartburn and indigestion
• constipation
• weight gain
• dizziness and light-headedness
• bloating, swelling, fluid retention
• hemmorhoids
• abdominal cramps
• yeast infections
• congested, bloody nose
• acne and mild skin disorders
• skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
• mild to severe backache and strain
• increased headaches
• difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
• increased urination and incontinence
• bleeding gums
• pica
• breast pain and discharge
• swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
  (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
• extreme pain on delivery
• hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
• continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

• stretch marks (worse in younger women)
• loose skin
• permanent weight gain or redistribution
• abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
• pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
• changes to breasts
• increased foot size
• varicose veins
• scarring from episiotomy or c-section
• other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
• increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
• loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
• higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
• newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

Occasional complications and side effects:

• complications of episiotomy
• spousal/partner abuse
• hyperemesis gravidarum
• temporary and permanent injury to back
• severe scarring requiring later surgery
  (especially after additional pregnancies)
• dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
• pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
• eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
• gestational diabetes
• placenta previa
• anemia (which can be life-threatening)
• thrombocytopenic purpura
• severe cramping
• embolism (blood clots)
• medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
• diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
• mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
• serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
• hormonal imbalance
• ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
• broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
• hemorrhage and
• numerous other complications of delivery
• refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
• aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
• severe post-partum depression and psychosis
• research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
• research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
• research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:

• peripartum cardiomyopathy
• cardiopulmonary arrest
• magnesium toxicity
• severe hypoxemia/acidosis
• massive embolism
• increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
• molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
  (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
• malignant arrhythmia
• circulatory collapse
• placental abruption
• obstetric fistula

More permanent side effects:

• future infertility
• permanent disability
• death.

 

I don't know if you're capable of this, but please try to consider things from my perspective for a moment. I consider easy access to elective abortions to be the greatest moral failing of the country I live in. The "then don't have one" argument you're trying to make here comes across to me exactly like this:
"If the holocaust turns your stomach, then don't do one, but YOUR morals aren't everyone's" (so don't try to tell Hitler he can't kill all those people). Do you see how utterly repulsive that argument sounds?

 

If that's the greatest 'evil" you've seen you are blessed....

If it makes your stomach turn then don't have an abortion but YOUR "morals" aren't everyone's.

BTW, abortion has been going on long before your lifetime...


YOU SAY "some discomfort/pain " ????????????????? EASY FOR YOU TO SAY !

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

• exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
• altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
• nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
• heartburn and indigestion
• constipation
• weight gain
• dizziness and light-headedness
• bloating, swelling, fluid retention
• hemmorhoids
• abdominal cramps
• yeast infections
• congested, bloody nose
• acne and mild skin disorders
• skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
• mild to severe backache and strain
• increased headaches
• difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
• increased urination and incontinence
• bleeding gums
• pica
• breast pain and discharge
• swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
  (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
• extreme pain on delivery
• hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
• continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

• stretch marks (worse in younger women)
• loose skin
• permanent weight gain or redistribution
• abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
• pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
• changes to breasts
• increased foot size
• varicose veins
• scarring from episiotomy or c-section
• other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
• increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
• loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
• higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
• newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

Occasional complications and side effects:

• complications of episiotomy
• spousal/partner abuse
• hyperemesis gravidarum
• temporary and permanent injury to back
• severe scarring requiring later surgery
  (especially after additional pregnancies)
• dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
• pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
• eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
• gestational diabetes
• placenta previa
• anemia (which can be life-threatening)
• thrombocytopenic purpura
• severe cramping
• embolism (blood clots)
• medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
• diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
• mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
• serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
• hormonal imbalance
• ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
• broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
• hemorrhage and
• numerous other complications of delivery
• refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
• aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
• severe post-partum depression and psychosis
• research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
• research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
• research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:

• peripartum cardiomyopathy
• cardiopulmonary arrest
• magnesium toxicity
• severe hypoxemia/acidosis
• massive embolism
• increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
• molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
  (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
• malignant arrhythmia
• circulatory collapse
• placental abruption
• obstetric fistula

More permanent side effects:

• 
  
• future infertility
  
• permanent disability
  
• death.

LOL! Here comes the "Hitler" defense( when all other "arguments" FAIL)....bad analogy, Hitler murdered living people that is against the law. It doesn't matter what one's morals are , it was against the law.

I did notice how you REALLY had to cherry pick my post so I posted the entire post above ...no response ?



Hitler took away the Jews right to bodily autonomy....exactly what Anti-Choicers are trying to do to women....THERE is your Hitler "analogy "



BTW, comparing the horror and suffering that Jews went through to the painless death of a fetus is DESPICABLE.

 

The law has less and less to do with what's moral each passing day. Rosa Parks broke the law. These days, most people recognize that illegal act as a moral one. Likewise, there are a great many acts that are legal, but immoral. From time to time, we recognize those immoral acts for the abomination they are, and sometimes make them illegal. I hold out hope that a similar pattern will play out for abortions of convenience.

I'm already well-acquainted with the physical effects and risks of pregnancy. My wife is currently pregnant with our third child. It doesn't seem relevant to the discussion, so I ignored it. If you think it's relevant, please feel free to explain why you think so.

"Bodily autonomy" is mostly a fiction, anyways. The government routinely takes away the "bodily autonomy" of various groups and classes.

We probably disagree on whether all elective abortions are "painless" for the unborn children.[/QUOTE]

 

Do Orphanages Still Exist in America?

Are There Any Traditional Orphanages in the US?

I found these two articles addressing this question. The first link covers the history, the second one describes a personal experience in an American orphanage. The bottom line is that traditional orphanages are expensive to run, and the belief among child welfare advocates is that the presence of being in a foster family is generally more beneficial for childhood development than straight institutionalized care.

I've got no skin in this game, but I would venture to say that unless some extraordinary circumstances become present, there is little to no chance of reversing course on the foster care system.

 

Insane asylums, once common in the US, have also since disappeared.
The main reason being budget cuts.

Interesting that two institutionalized systems that used to be a commonplace structural component in the society now longer exist and are considered "too expensive".

Sure, there are other reasons given for them no longer existing, but I suspect it is really mainly about money.

 

That seems to be the case. We've dismantled a lot of social institutions like Insane asylums, then seem shocked when homelessness skyrockets.

 

You can indirectly blame Reagan for the elimination of mental institutions, and yes, it was around the 1980s when big pharma started heavily manufacturing drugs to treat mental illness. Then again, those sanitariums of the past did some really awful things with little oversight. There still are mental institutions, but basically in two flavors; government-run alternatives to traditional prison, or opulent "treatment centers" that efficiently bilk your insurance.

 

Babies are the easiest to get adopted. It's mostly older children who age out like that.

 

Not anymore. Maybe 70 years ago that was the case.

Although they do probably still have large facilities for children with severe disabilities.

 

Making up definitions and setting arbitrary values does not change what is correct.

A fetus by definition is not born.
A child by definition has been born.
It is not possible to abort a child.
Nor is it possible to give birth to a fetus

A discussion about aborting children is nonsensical.

 

Because YOU posted : "" If some women have to deal with some discomfort / pain for a few months, largely as a result of their own irresponsible choices"" showing CLEARLY you have no idea of what pregnancy involves.

So I showed how that was not true by showing the REALITIES of pregnancy.

You can brush them off but then YOU aren't the pregnant one nor a scientist or doctor....

NOR can you prove that all pregnancy is just "some discomfort/pain for a few months".

To denigrate and make light of what a woman goes through to birth a baby is disgusting........

LOL! No, bodily autonomy is a very real right....if we didn't have it someone could force you to give them your heart or lung or blood....NO one has that right.


It's what people lose when they become slaves or have their right to abortion taken away..

We don't have to agree, science says they don't /can't feel pain.....but I notice science isn't your strong suit...

 

YES WHERE are those Anti-abortion folks??? Why aren't they adopting all those kids!!!??????????

 

I would normally agree regarding definitions and arbitrary values if there existed a standard universally supported by consensus and law. Even your statements carry potential for debate, they represent your subjective perspective, one of the bias you hold.

Regarding the definition of birth and distinction fetus vs child, what does birth specifically mean? Is birth the end result of a natural process of a child passing through the birth canal? Is a cesarean procedure resulting in a child considered birth and the fetus delivered by that process a child? If so, what is the difference when a term pregnancy is aborted by that or any other method? Is a failed pregnancy, where the body rejects a fetus, but the fetus remains briefly living (theoretically, savable by medical technology) a baby? So, the various suggestions for termination of a just birthed baby considered an abortion of killing a baby? At what point does a fetus become a baby? What constitutes a fetus/child separated from a mother considered a fetus vs a child? Hmmm, in normal conversation a pregnant woman of often describe not as a woman carrying a fetus, but carrying a baby... the basis for laws prescribed to level specific and separate charges if someone kills the fetus/child in the womb...even if the mother survives. Does the term mother only apply when there is a child?

My point was, there is no universal standard or agreement on definitions despite we many thinking there is for drawing the line in law and moral obligation. Even the simple distinction some try to make between murder and abortion is subject to debate based on the frame of reference that is being applied. Even reaching for a dictionary is not necessarily an authority. I am all for establishing definitive definitions, both doing so is not a cut and dried thing any more than you are an authority.

Hmmm... what of retroactive abortions...Lol. There are some I’d like to see.

 

FoxHastings, we've had this discussion before, your questions were answered.
Didn't you read them?

Why should anyone answer you again, when you will just pretend to not hear them again.

You keep repeating things like a broken record, even though your arguments have been disarmed in the past.

I don't have time to repeat all of the argument again to you here, but I pointed out that Christians were substantially more likely to adopt than the general population, and much more likely to adopt specifically when it came to children with disabilities.
And I also pointed out to you there is not a single White baby that has gone unadopted, the only exception being perhaps a few with extremely serious disabilities, and even in those cases many of them still get adopted.

 

So let's call a fetus a teenager and a 2 year old an adult ???? Who needs names for stages in life....????? !!!



OK, here's the shocker, a fetus is attached to the woman it's in, it relies on her for life.....when it's BORN , now pay attention...it becomes separated from her....


Pretty basic biology.... and a HUGE difference...

 

Sounds like you two are changing the argument now.

This thread is not about Abortion in general. It's specifically about abortion relating to the issue of unwanted children.

Seems like a lot of people here do not really understand what it means to remain on topic.

 

LOL, when did YOU start answering questions ?? !

No, they haven't...that's just you and your science fiction world ..

You never have had an argument before....why start now

And I always point out that there are still kids who are NOT adopted by anyone including those "loving" Anti-Choicers who think adoption is an option.

 

YA-ah! I knowwwwwww...your last post talked about ME....so off topic LOL!