There may be millions of habitable planets in our galaxy

Discussion in 'Science' started by (original)late, Nov 13, 2020.

  1. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Bible is filled with them so take your pick

    Peter 3:12, John 9:31
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This could well be true.

    However, we're not in a position to make bets on that - or to work toward that objective.

    Our first scheduled passenger plane flight took place barely 100 years ago. At that time, Einstein was still working to convince the world of relativity theory - which is required for anything involving space.

    We have 5 billion years. How about we put off this issue for a BILLION years or so?
     
  3. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But you are because you aren't preparing for it. Instead you are under the impression that you can stop it, which you can't, which means you are dumping this directly onto later generations.
     
  4. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I always have a problem with declarations like that:
    There may be millions of habitable planets in our galaxy

    Each week you have a million of loto combinations that may be the winning ticket. Yet, only one will be the actual winning combination. Probabilities =/= certainties. And no, I'm not arguing for a divine intervention here.

    There's also the problem of recognizing what is actually alive and worst yet, what is intelligent life. We share quite a bit of genetic material with the rest of the animal world, yet we're not really recognising them as our equal in intelligence. Would we recognise a non-carbon, non humanoid species as intelligent enough to warrant expending resources to try to communicate with them? Many insect build intricated structures, some near mathematically perfect, yet we're not trying to communicate with them.

     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No. We can NOT stop it.

    The issue here is that flying humans around this solar system at this time has essentially nothing to do with escaping this solar system. Any human space travel ideas are simply ridiculous compared to the magnitude of the problem.

    But, there is a LOT we can do about making sure our Earth's population survives and thrives.

    One step we're working on today is to understand why our current physics is broken. Physics is such a HUGE portion of the problem of traveling ouside our solar syste that any progress we make in flying humans around our solar system is essentially meaningless. We're just not learning much of anything by doing that.

    Also, there is work being done to examine exoplanets - all of which are at impossible distances. But, with ZERO destinations, flying doesn't make much sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The number of winners in lotto is the number that those running the lotto decided to put there.

    I don't see that as having any implication on what we may find in this universe.

    As for communication, we teach apes sign language. We talk with our dogs. If we get any response at all, we pursue that.

    If life outside our planet can communicate, we'll be there trying to do so.

    But, I think the biggest single aspect of life outside our planet is simply determining if we are the only life.

    Even if we find no more than pond scum, let's remember that not that long ago (cosmologically speaking) we were pond scum, too.
     
  7. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    There are almost endless possibilities for life out there but we don't know of any life out there yet . Communication comes from association. What about intelligent life on a planet with higher gravity? How would they generate enough power to leave the planet. Chemical propulsion only goes so far. It is fun to ponder however. I tend to think life is out there like giant shrimp in the waters of Europa.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Definitely cool ideas. Yes, a little more size (thus gravity) would have changed our own planet's history in a huge way.

    And, the sources of energy that can exist far below surfaces does seem to hint that there oculd be "shrimp" in places that would be seriously hard to find. I sort of think that human intelligence came from life forms facing the incredible variety of Earth's surface - someting that seems less likely to exist in the pitch black waters below a frozen wasteland like Enceladus. But, I like Earth's surface!!

    We're less than a decade away from space based telescopes that have the mission to look at the surfaces of exoplanets at least to the level of being able to use spectra to find what those atmospheres consiste of.

    That should be interesting!
     
  9. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You missunderstood my lotto comment. Having a big set of probability doesn't equal a certainty, not when your present set of positive result is a single point in that big set, earth.

    We teach ape sign language, but we still don't consider them on our level intellectually. And we don't really know if they're really understanding the meaning of the sign they learned or if it's just a pavlov reaction.

    Talking to your dog is also meaningless. He's just reacting to the intonation of your voice and other visual clue which he learned, also in a pavlov way, to interpret in a positive or negative way. Tell him softly that he's a good boy and he'll wag his tail. Shout at him aggresively that he's a good boy and he'll cower. He's not really understanding what you're saying.

    If there's life on another planet you'll have first to identifying that it's actually alive, then determine if it's sentient and lastly find a way to communicate using a totally different way that we humans do. We fail at this when trying to do this between the varying human culture on this planet, good luck trying to do this in a meaningful way with a totally different lifeform lightyears away and without any possible missunderstanding resulting in hostile reaction. You gave talking to your dog as an example... Trying going in the wilderness and try talking to a wolf or a lion to see how well it goes. This isn't Star Trek where every lifeform behaves just as we human do and where english is an universal language...

    Beside, you may not like the response that we may get as an answer to us trying to communicate with an alien civilisation. Again, this isn't Star Trek.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK - I see your point, though I don't quite get the lotto analogy.

    Whether life we find is intelligent hits me as more of a timing issue. A short time back, we were pond scum. Now, we're exploring the cosmos.

    I think the major find would be life.
     
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  11. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    If I go out to my fence and yell "hey goats", I have communicated the fact I have food. It is a simple communication but communication none the less. I don't expect to discuss Shakespeare's plays. Training an animal is also communication.
     
  12. dadoalex

    dadoalex Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In the Goldilocks zone but habitable? Probably not so many in any meaningful ways.

    Look at our own corner. Venus and Mars are in the "habitable" zone. There is evidence that Mars once had surface water and a much denser atmosphere. Don't know what happened to Venus but I've heard it described as "Global Warming gone crazy." Some might call Mars "habitable" but there's no discussion about Venus. So, what does "habitable" mean? I think it means more than "can support life" I think it means "habitable by people."

    That means we could go and live there (forget the time and distance for now) and find:
    An atmosphere breathable by humans;
    Liquid water drinkable by humans and easily accessible in great quantities;
    Plantlife similar to that on earth preferably consumable by people;
    Survivable weather extremes;
    If there are sentient beings there we'd like those beings to:
    resemble humans and
    Not kill us and dissect us when we land.

    Earth is, in fact "Just Right"
    A planet half again as large and we might not have birds, airplanes, and we're certainly not launching manned rockets into space.
    Half as large and it's probably too small to retain any usable atmosphere
    The orbit can't be too extreme
    The list goes on

    And all of this goes to say that we'll most likely find lots of planets in the "habitable zone" I doubt many of those planets will be habitable by us.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would be curious how many "habitable" planets would be sterile of life. I mean statistically.

    Probability suggests that most planets very similar to Earth would have already developed some form of life. Unless the development of life under the optimal conditions is an extreme anomaly, which we do not really know.

    A "habitable" planet without life would probably have an atmospheric pressure not too different from earth, but with much higher levels of carbon dioxide. And of course no oxygen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    By "habitable" scientists do NOT mean that a human could possibly survive there.

    They look at a range of factors that seem to be required.

    So, one is that there has to be an energy source. Another is that the environment must allow for coplex molecules to develop.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    dupe
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  16. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    If an event on Earth killed all life forms today except microbial stuff, in another 3.5 billion years, will there be another intelligent life form in place? And along this 3.5 billion year timeline, when will these new life forms be detectable to ET's...perhaps the last 200-300 years? Or, must life as we know it be required to form in the early stages of a planet, with certain environments that don't exist today? Might there be trillions of so-called habitable planets nearly identical to Earth in which microbial life exists but never evolved and now lack the environmental conditions to do so?

    And for those like Earth who have evolved to our same technological levels, how long can they actually survive? Whether it be self-destruction or just sucking the resources and lifeblood from the planet due to over-population and perhaps creating an inhabitable climate scenario, life as we know it on Earth might only last another 500-1000 years?

    If I was doing SETI work I think I would search only those planets that are <3.75 billion years old. Even then the question remains what to look for? A radio signal? Biometrics? Planet reflectivity?
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Interesting questions/ideas.

    I think the search for life goes way beyond Seti's contribution today. The search for life is included in pretty much all the missions designed by NASA and the similar organizations of other countries as well as those doing Earth based astronomy. The data they record is public and universities around the world study what is found in new and createive ways. Seti data are shared and Seti looks beyond its own data.

    There are space based telescopes being designed today that will be able to get an actual image of the surface of an exoplanet in the frequency range of light. I think that's a possibility within 10 years. That would allow for examining the atmospheres of some number of exoplanets by analyzing spectra.
     
  18. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    I would rather not try to see if microbial life could once again develop into intelligent life. But we can determine some things from light. Atoms and molecules can be identified by spectral lines. And listening to radio waves is cheap but what to listen for? And what to look for? When I was a kid Venus was a sister planet possibly inhabited by dinosaurs. Just keep our eyes open I reckon.
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Amen to that first sentence!!

    As for the hoax side ...

    In 1835 USA, "scientists" claimed to have built an incredible telescope that was capable of viewing life on the moon. It included fantastical beings and jungle landscapes with new announcements to enrapture the world - including stuff like drawings of winged humanoids.

    It was later called "The Great Moon Hoax".

    It ended when the "scientists" claimed they accidentally allowed the sun to hit their lenses with the resultant focused heat burning down their facility to nothingness. And, prohibitavely expensive to rebuild, I'm sure.
     
  20. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    I think a lack of knowledge rather than hoax. It wasn't long ago that every planet and moon beyond Mars was in a deep freeze. Science fiction seems to be a stimulus for out of the box thinking. I thought Jurassic Park was genius. Who would of thunk it. A genetic blueprint preserved in amber? It is plausible.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, the Moon Hoax absolutely was a hoax, obviously.

    I certainly agree that sci fi comes up with cool ideas that really are inspirational.

    And, I especially like your example as it respects science more than most. I really enjoyed "The Martian", too, as it made a fairly serious attempt to stay within science other than a list of explicit exceptions - a story of the use of science by an exceptional engineer. Yes, we probably won't be blowing the ends out of spacecraft to change their trajectory any time soon, and we got a warped impression of storms on Mars, etc., but ...
     
  22. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    As man advances so does his science fiction. I went through a period of 1930s science fiction. They had some pretty cool stuff too.
     
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  23. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I think searching for radio signals is one option, but over the distances we're talking about, how many of those signals will actually be detectable? This tells me we must also search for detectable events located within the exoplanet's atmospheric range...like reflected light, biometrics, atmospheric conditions, water, good gases, magnetic fields, etc. As you state, this will require space-based telescopes, powerful enough to show exoplanet imagery.

    Another area of SETI I wonder about is detecting ET spacecrafts, or other airborne mechanical equipment, that are orbiting exoplanets or simply soaring through space like our Voyager spacecraft are doing? If so, I can imagine these to be huge...perhaps a mile in length, basically Earth2 or biosphere 2, 100% self-sustaining, carrying 5000 humans, all on a one-way trip 'out there'.

    What is actually detectable, when will we have technology to detect, and how long will this take?
     
  24. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Yes...we just need to know 'what' to search for, develop the technology for the searching, spend money we don't have, have patience, and be lucky as hell...
     
  25. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    And changing it around some...'as science fiction advances...so does man'...
     
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