French government begins cracking down on terrorism, civil rights threatened

@LafayetteBis What ? This thread is about Macron and France, not Trump ?

 

How ironic when the only argument of Macron was just "not being Marine Le Pen)
I'm not a big fan of this law but the security of police officers outside their work was harder and harder to assure. Violence against police officer doubled in a decade if I remember well, I don't know if Macron do that to avoid a rebellion from the police.

 

I doubt French leaders care about what police think.

 

Not that much, but a wide spread police rebellion would be a really big problem for the government.

 

Well, if you look at what's happening in other countries like the US, progressive leaders obviously do not seem to be the least bit concerned about something like that.

However, I suppose it's possible that due to his sinking popularity, Macron might be looking for any allies he can get.
Not saying that's what's happening, just a possibility.

I still think this was probably just something fabricated and imagined up by the NY Times, so they could try to come up with an explanation why Macron is doing this, something that fits their narrative and would allow them to lay blame on police.

It's hard to discuss stories when the only sources you have are heavily biased media coverage that directs readers to make assumptions that may likely not be true.

If a news story says 'This is happening, and it's happening for this reason', you should more easily believe that that thing is happening, and be more skeptical about the reason they tell you it is happening, when virtually no details are given about the evidence for that reason.

In other words, these stories can be truths with some lies mixed in, so you have to separate out facts from diversionary attempts, where they will try to guide your mental process about what you think about the story you read.

 

You just decided that, did you ... ?

 

The opening thread is about Macron and french government...

 

I don't see how filming police in action appears to be equated with attacking them - unless you are suggesting they act so badly that that stirs up people to! This is the first time I have heard of filming of the police attacking someone and that resulting in them being arrested. Have there been a lot more? If they are acting so badly there is fear that seeing them doing it would automatically result in attacks on them off duty, then it appears how they do their work needs to be looked into, not hidden from the public. It is of course wrong to attack police off duty or indeed on duty.

What do you believe the Police would be in rebellion to gain and how do you see them doing this rebellion?

 

Well, the French police has a reputation for abusing/beating/killing its citizens. They quite happily colaborated with the Nazi after all.

 

Oh, really! Show the proof!

Like a lotta peeple here, your muffling ...

 

For example, think about what the animal rights activists used to do when targeting the people that worked at testing laboratories...remember how they would take photographs of the people who worked at these places, publish pictures and personal details of them on the activist "forums" and invite other "forum" members to visit their homes for tea and biscuits or to go to their places of work and help them repair the brakes on their cars.....? When service men re-placed BAOR car number plates for civilian ones as terrorist cells would look out for military car number plates?
The intent is to restrain those that by publishing pictures of peoples faces they can be identified and targetted with the intent to cause harm.

 

...its just noise.....forget it.....

 

You want me to show the proof the French police has a history of beating people up, torturing prisonners and of collaboration with the Nazi? Really? Bousquet ring a bell? Darnand?

 

I hate to tell you but I missed all the animal stuff though having read what you said, it sounds like incitement to violence.

I am afraid I still do not get it. Are you saying that when police are filmed acting brutally with the public that if people see them they will want to get back at them? Possibly that is why that is when they arrest them - to keep them safe. If the police are acting badly then that needs to be looked into and changed. If the police have been acting in a manner which it is recognised is so bad that once people know who one of them is, they will be off to attack them, there is clearly a very big problem with the French Police.

Not only would this allow the Police to act with uncalled for brutality, the Press believe it will not allow them to report news as they see it - that is interfere with Freedom of the Press.

 

I am remembering that Macron offered the Police a good deal on retirement Pay etc before he announced how he was going to cut that for everyone else. It looks like he is trying to bribe them not to identify with the protestors. Certainly what I have learned is that in a Democracy the Police can only do their job if the people believe they are 'serving' the people. If they start to see them as outsiders against them then their credibility goes. Of course France has been having continuous protests.

 

Is that mentioned in Article 24? From my limited understanding of this its to do with the dissemination of "media" of police officers so that they can be identified and targeted with the intent of doing them harm. I know that for those with an agenda it can be conflated into many things - none of which is the intention of the Bill from what I understand. That said, these things as we agree are always open to interpretation and that is why I always fall back on what the legal tests are in relation to the tenets of the Bill? If there is ambiguity or indeed if the Bill is silent on a salient point then it will (presumably) be open to interpretation by a competent court of law with the ability to go to appeal/arbitration and ultimately to the European Count for final judgement.
I hate all this media knee jerk reaction and if I am wrong and it gets used in a manner not intended then I am with those that would oppose such laws of unintended consequences. That said we are not at that stage yet as it hasn't even been passed yet - has it?

 

I am sure that there is a domestic process against police in France, just as there is in all European countries, in just such cases. In any case nothing needs changing because what you suggest is already enshrined in European Law.

 

....I think its the law in France to protest on a continual basis.....about anything.....

 

I haven't read Article 24 but my answer was in response to what you say. Why the hell would people want to do that? In a democracy a police only work with the will of the people. If you get it to a point where the people on mass are not accepting the police you are in big trouble.

OK

Obviously I have seen no example of what this would be but it looks incredibly nebulous to me.

I had thought that that was what it was about - a black and white ban on taking photos or videoing the police

Facing backlash, French govt to review controversial bill that would ban images of police (france24.com)
so the concern is also in areas where you say people can go. It is good that they are expressing concern before this comes in. It needs to be clear before it gets started. It still sounds extremely fishy to me and it seems I am not alone in that thought.

 

Yes, but you need to be able to prove things. In the States that has occasionally allowed police to be held to account. It is the strongest evidence people can have given that it shows what happened. That article I put in also mentioned George Floyd suggesting they want to make sure that sort of thing does not happen in France.

 

There was the case of a couple of Police officers that was killed in front of their baby a few years ago by a terrorist.
I don't pretend there isn't problem with police, but there is also of pure indiscriminate hatred that is encouraged by a part of the political spectrum. The irony is that I suppose it can only lead only to a form of radicalization of the police, as only the most radical would apply to the police. If police officers are threatened in their private life, then they have to be protected.
There is a part of problem itself with the police, but there is also a big problem with the far left that has been radicalized at a very deep level and is bloodthirsty.

Yes, and reputation aren't always well deserved. Let's take the case of the killing, The french police killed in 2019 26 people, which is especially low considering the multiple terrorist attacks we faced, in the same time 25 police men were killed, for a population of more than 60 millions of people, it's just ridiculous low number.

 

...you mean people wanting to harm to police?

Sure but that assumes all members of that democracy are law abiding....if you have no police then one assumes you have vigilantism against those that trespass against the law abiding. Under what auspices do you tolerate vigilantes and their actions? Do you allow armed militias? As you say a democracy has to support the actions of its police but it also must protect its police from those that want to undermine the rule of the law applicable to its law abiding citizens. Terrorist inhabit that grey world where until they commit or by cause commence the commission of terrorist actions can be law abiding citizens. Again I would draw the analogy of the animal rights activists who legally protest their cause but then cross the line into quasi-terrorism by targeting members of the public going about their lawful work.
These are difficult times when it comes to enforcing the rights and privileges of a free democracy. There a those that would use those very same privileges to work against and undermine the freedoms and rights of the law abiding democracy - its a shitty world but the over-riding point is that there is still an active and impartial judiciary that has the mandate and capability of adjudicating matters of law and interpreting actions of governments that transgress the, for example, Article 10 of the ECHR.

 

Perfect! That's exactly how it should be in a democracy.

I go back to my thought right at the star of this in that it is purely a political stunt of Macron to shore up is "right-wing" credentials in order to take the wind out of the right-wingers.

 

Bollocks again! I can do the same for any state in the US!

It just so happens that for the first time a video of a person being beaten by the police (because he took part in a reckless demonstration.

All of those four police have been inculpated, and two remain in jail. Having said that, all four have no previous record of this kind. And why did it happen? Because the police were working in a large demonstration that turned wild. There was very heavy fighting between the police and typically younger males who decided that they should riot instead of just demonstrate peacefully. (Which has become recurrent in France since Covid put most of these males out-of-work since last March!!!!)

Yes, so, ****-happens anywhere on earth, but when it does happen is no-indication-whatsoever that it is "conventional" in that country!

 

I don't know where you are getting your number of police deaths, but here they are nationally from a WikiPedia-site: Violence policière en France — Wikipédia

You're exaggerating greatly ...