Democrats, how do you expect Biden to raise minimum wage while bringing in more immigrants?

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by kazenatsu, Nov 29, 2020.

  1. Vailhundt

    Vailhundt Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    But right on topic to push back against the lie that illegal labor is any large part reposnsible for our pathetic, stagnant wages.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    51,271
    Likes Received:
    22,661
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So...you will continue your offtopic point. carry on
     
  3. Vailhundt

    Vailhundt Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Right on topic. Will you continue to post offtopic to complain it is offtopic? Hope not.
     
  4. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Too bad you don't understand business? Employers already do whatever is necessary to attract workers, including in some incidences increasing pay. But there are limits to what should be done! Seems stupid to increase wages to hire people when 'you say' there are qualified unemployed people all over the place. You also don't understand that employers do not care what the cost of labor is as long as they can remain competitive and consumers will sustain demand. Your use of 'coolie labor' is disrespectful and racist! And lastly, there are wage laws in the US, so all wages paid by employers is legal...and if not the company should be penalized.
     
  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    51,271
    Likes Received:
    22,661
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You've failed to demonstrate that there is a domestic shortage of labor requiring the importation of labor. What businesses are you referring to?
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,196
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Let me see if I understand your argument properly. Are you saying it is only legal immigration that causes wages to be kept low, or are you saying that all immigration (both illegal and legal) does not cause wages to be low?
    (I mean, is your argument really specifically about illegal immigration here)
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
  7. Vailhundt

    Vailhundt Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am saying immigration, legal or otherwise, is not in any large part responsible for the relative stagnation of wages. Wages will always be in a race to the bottom in capitalism, as labor is such an elastic market. Put another way: A human will work for $1 an hour instead of not working, in general. What has historically kept wages from bottoming out were collective bargaining and minimum wage laws. This is how we manage capitalism in a mixed system where we give deference not just to profit, but also to human well-being. And now that the unions have been decimated and minimum wage laws have been woefully inadequate for decades, the predicted results are occurring. To economists, this isn't really "high level" stuff.
     
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    51,271
    Likes Received:
    22,661
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's simply false. There is a labor market that sets wage independently of collective bargaining and minimum wage. Only 10% of jobs in the US are union jobs. If you were right than the maximum wage in the US would be the minimum wage for a non union job.
     
  9. Vailhundt

    Vailhundt Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And the labor market is elastic and will always be a race to the bottom. All the historical facts are on my side. All the economic principles are on my side. What do you have, besides stomping your feet and "because i say so!". Nothing, that's what.
     
  10. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    51,271
    Likes Received:
    22,661
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well no. You have neither history or economics on your side as I explained in my last post and you failed to respond to it's particulars. I await your further description on how you don't believe there is any such thing as a market for labor.
     
  11. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's not my job to demonstrate anything?! First, there is NO SHORTAGE of labor in the USA. However, there is a severe shortage of labor qualified and willing to work! Try Googling 'shortage of qualified labor in the USA' and you can demonstrate all you wish from numerous articles. I'm a business owner and the biggest problem we have is finding qualified and motivated and sustainable labor!
     
  12. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    51,271
    Likes Received:
    22,661
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Maybe I'm mistaking you for another poster, but aren't you in agriculture and what you are looking for is illegal labor? I'm unclear on the qualifications for that other than the willingness to disobey US laws.
     
  13. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13,830
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Don't worry about the immigrants. They are being paid off the books, perhaps at substantially lower wages. Beggars can't be choosers. But don't feel too bad about them. They have substantially cheaper rent. I once went on apartments.com, or somewhere, and went into the Spanish language section and saw "apartments" that were actually empty closets with very low rent. Can't find any listings at the moment though, oh well.
     
  14. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The migrants who are sneaking into the EU cannot find any work because they have no Work Permit. So, of course, they do work for cash.

    But that is not sufficient to sustain a family. So, inevitably they leave.

    The US let's them in and even allows them to work - so the consequences are all yours to begin with. There are more than enough Americans below the Poverty Threshold. About 38 million or 10% of the population.

    Even before Covid these migrants (mostly from Africa and the Middle-east) were finding no jobs when they arrived here. Now they have no way of getting home. So they try to live in tent-camps, which the countries go in and dismantle. Perhaps they just need a plane-ticket back to where they came from? But that's unlikely if they were escaping a country at war - and that's the case of the Middle-east for the moment.

    The Greeks have given up caring from them where they were "stocked" upon entry. That situation is going to explode one day ...
     
  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That's illegal and anyone doing so should pay a heavy fine.

    Enough fines and they learn to hire people according to the legal rules ...

    PS: And a check every now and then in some places for illegal workers that result in fines does some good as well.
    PPS: Mexico is a mess. Always has been, always will be ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  16. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13,830
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, they can pay the fine and then continue with their practice.

    Oh, by the way, on another note, I just saw some news on a leak that the Chinese Communist Party has infiltrated large companies and government and has been stealing intellectual property rights. And not only that but they have been replacing those companies with Chinese companies of their own selling the stuff for cheap.

    Major leak 'exposes' members and 'lifts the lid' on the Chinese Communist Party
    Dur.: 6:27.


    How that relates to the thread is that it puts a downward pressure on wages. Also lowers the attraction of immigration to the USA.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  17. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13,830
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Delete duplicate post.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  18. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I figure that our relations with China are purely Donald-Dork in nature. They will improve enormously with the advent of Biden to the Oval Office.

    China has every reason to do so. Because most of the cheap-stuff business they have with the world is moving over to Southeast Asia (Thailand, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia).

    The top-edge business will remain in China, which is furious that it's principle hi-tech business (Huawei) has been blacklisted by Trump in the US. But that could have been because of Trump's personal interests in China, which he has had in the past. That particular cat is out of the bag on January 20.

    We shall see what Biden plans on doing with China about Huawei, if anything. Or what the US's foreign-policy attitude will be towards China.

    From here, Wikipedia: Foreign Relations With China
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
  19. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Worth reading: Chinese Immigrants in the United States

    So, that red part of your response above intimates it's just-fine if we continue importing cheap-Chinese labor that forces our own people into unemployment?

    Please clarify ...

    PS: Frankly cheap-labor* is not so much a part of the American economy as it was in the past. But why ANYBODY should be able to enter the country and just-start-working without any need for a registration-procedure seems wholly illegal to me ...

    *From what I understand it is mostly seasonal agricultural work and comes from Mexico. Does anybody hiring them have to obtain permission from any US authority?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
  20. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13,830
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    China is moving up in the world, and by that I mean they are moving up to mid-range resources trade, from the cheap stuff. I'm talking about their belt and road initiative. I don't know if our intelligence services will try to sabotage that initiative.
     
  21. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    78,717
    Likes Received:
    19,868
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Republicans, what kind of crazy conspiracy theory stuff is floating around now?
     
  22. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am not particularly worried given the fact that China has an enormous population to manage.

    Which means, yes, like they showed us in Korea, China has a lot more manpower that they can employ at war. (But, wars have changed. If it's big, then it's atomic.)

    Let's presume that what China wants to show America today is that it has a standing army that can go to war. So, "leave China alone!"

    China's principle preoccupation (due to its vast population) is to put its people to work so the economy does not backfire and probably take down the Communist government.

    Let's not get overly concerned about China. It's biggest challenge is its oversize-population ...
     
  23. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is nonsense...cash can be paid as long as the employer and employee reports the transactions.

    Anecdotal; what do you call all the tipping? It's cash payment! Some of it is reported while some is not...
     
  24. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13,830
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    About this, I think China has been planning out its population strategy. First, it had a one-child policy to lower the population growth, but in recent years they got rid of that policy, so I think their population numbers are all according to plan.
     
  25. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There's nothing in my statement you quoted that is incorrect?? I said;
    "employers do not care what the cost of labor is as long as they can remain competitive and consumers will sustain demand"

    I'd be curious if you can provide a single example of so-called 'cheap Chinese labor' in the US today?

    How about some logic? If US workers would actually do all of that 'agricultural work' you mention, there would be NO jobs for undocumented workers.
     

Share This Page