Can you be a "minimalist Christian"?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greenleft, Dec 21, 2020.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't see an easy way around what Jesus said in Matthew 25:30 on.

    Jesus was pretty darn specific in what he said.

    Do you think Matthew didn't get his quote straight?
     
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  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well said. I didn't meant that being rich is a sin. However, as a nation full of Christians I don't believe we can argue that we are fulfilling the message of Jesus regarding wealth.

    I do remember that the tomb was a donation from someone with wealth, but we don't have any real record of the fiscal behavior of that individual.

    Jesus was pretty harsh in his admonition to the "rich man". Using those words to guide ones own life does seem to raise questions.
     
  3. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Very good observations!

    What you are noticing here is that our earthly government system is quite literally picking "winners" and "losers". I'm sure you have heard the terms "essential" and "non-essential" being thrown around with regard to such covid-related tyranny. This is simply picking winners and losers based on politics. Professional sports, large corporate stores, and violent arms of the political left (BLM, Antifa) are all being considered "essential". Meanwhile, churches, movie theaters, restaurants, and small businesses (mom & pop shops) are all being considered "non-essential". This is a lie. Truth is, ALL businesses are essential. They ALL are an entrepreneur (or group of entrepreneurs) trying to make a living for themselves. Many of them also have employees (sometimes quite numerous) to provide for. All of those people are essential and should not be treated as "second rate" to large corporations and "special interests".

    What you are also noticing, due to how arbitrarily the above-mentioned covid tyranny is being applied, is that the covid tyranny actually has absolutely nothing to do with covid itself. Rather, it is meant as a "justification" for earthly governments to gain additional power over individuals who are WAY too willing to hand over their internal self-governance in exchange for external forces to (tyrannically) rule OVER them. Covid tyranny is meant to put the proles into debt, to enslave them to government, to invade people's personal lives, and etc... It is meant to usher in the "Great Reset" (one-world global governance), and in my conjecture, it will get the ball rolling for the events spoken of in Revelation to start occurring in the very near future).

    BINGO! You obviously see right through the scam being perpetrated upon the global populace. Good for you!

    You likely have also noticed the psyops involved with this as well, to get enough people to conform over to their way of thinking... Think about the study that was done where there was a group of "actors" who would purposely answer a question wrong in the same way to see whether or not the one person who wasn't "in the loop" would answer it correctly or whether that person would conform with the rest of the crowd who answered it incorrectly. That study showed that people, in general, do not wish to be ostracized. People instead have a tendency to conform with the rest of the group, even if the rest of the group is making egregiously incorrect claims. -- Hence why it is very important to not get "mixed up with the wrong crowd", so to speak...
     
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  4. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's a lot of insight and wisdom in your message. Remember Joe Biden declaring Democrats will no longer accept facts. Few people think. They just put one foot in front of the other. TV and the media does their thinking for them - telling people how to act and think to fit in.
     
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  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I've stated that. The Christian interpretation of the Bible is clear that "works" is not sufficient.

    The issue I've been pointing to is not that. It's the statment by Jesus in Matthew 25:30 on where Jesus indicates that those Christians who fail in their duties may be rejected by God.

    No god is being fooled by man. I was responding to a post on death bed conversions.

    I pointed out that planning to refuse God until one is on ones death bed IS basically an attempt to fool god.
     
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  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'm pointing to Matthew 25:30 on.

    The fact is that JESUS mentioned those specific works, so I'm not going to add on to what HE said. However, I don't believe it would make sense to limit "works" to those specific works.


    I'm not a big "golden rule" guy. There is a gigantic hole in it. I could have in mind some specific treatment that is deserved for some transgression. I can then say that, being a fair minded guy, I would expect that treatment myself.

    Thus I'm free by the golden rule to treat others in that manner!!

    The golden rule requires an individual to be the judge of other individuals - something Jesus never proposed.

    In Matthew 25, he told his followers that under pain of hell they had a duty to search out those in prison, etc., to determine need and to supply that need. He helped the Sammaritan, though having the status of "illegal alien" it would seem. He helped the prostitute without question.

    In NONE of these cases did he judge those people he helped. In none of those cases was the "golden rule" of any interest - the help was without judgement and without question of any kind.

    One can very reasonably point to the Genesis story where the sin of Adam was partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - of seeing himself as worthy of being judge.

    The golden rule results in the acts of Jesus only if one recognizes that one would ALWAYS want UNDCONITIONAL help. But, that's not really how the golden rule gets interpreted.
     
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  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    So, you're a purely political hack willing to say absolutely anything, I guess.

    Got it.
     
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  8. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    We're in agreement here.

    What I can't get on board with are your wordings "fail in their duties" and "rejected by God". It's not that you're completely wrong in what you're saying, but I suspect that you are not fully grasping the overarching picture here.

    Duties do not cause one to "be rejected by God". Duties have no effect on acceptance/rejection. If so, then we ALL have failed in our duties and we ALL are "rejected by God". Rather, it is God's grace that saves them, through their faith in God. Duties are simply the manifestation of that saving grace. This does allow for such duties to be an "objective criteria" for determining acceptance/rejection, which I think is sort of what you're getting at, but I think that you're putting too much focus on one's successful performance of the duties rather than the duties simply being the fruit of one's salvation.

    I also don't like the wording "rejected by God" because, while from one perspective it can be said that way, I think it can be better stated that it is oneself who is rejecting God. Jesus (God incarnate) has already died on the cross to save us from our sin; the ultimate sacrifice! That means that he is all-loving and has accepted everybody! However, certain people will choose to reject God. At that point, the relationship is not a mutual one, so those people will remain separated from God. Those people refuse to accept God's saving grace, so they are instead judged solely on their actions -- on their duties-- (which have fallen short of the glory of God). This means that God is not only all loving, but also all just.

    Gotcha. In that case, you are correct. If a person purposely plans on refusing God until the last minute, then "accepts" him at the last minute, then they are indeed attempting to fool God. God will not be fooled. That doesn't mean that last minute conversions cannot occur and cannot be genuine, but like you say, God will not be fooled.
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I cited my source.

    You are not addressing what Jesus said in Matthew 25:30 on.
     
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  10. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    Christianity is a free ticket for criminals of any kind. Do you really believe this?
     
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  11. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do I think someone can reject God their whole life and then say a few words at the end to garner forgiveness?

    Of course not.

    Is it possible to be redeemed at the last minute?

    Jesus says it is but He knows whats in the persons heart.

    People who think they can pull a fast one on God are in for a surprise.
     
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  12. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you may be misunderstanding what works are or I am just confused but if you are a Christian you will do many of the works automatically, the works refer to trying to live a Christian life the best way you can.

    Works that won't get you into Heaven are saying 20 different prayers at exactly 4pm on a Tuesday when its partly cloudy and you are standing on one leg, or whatever "ritual" they believe is important.

    It's fine to do that stuff but you can't do it by itself and expect to be redeemed, it's kind of a doing both thing.

    If you say you follow God but do the exact opposite of living a Christian life and not even caring then you probably really never accepted Jesus, you just mumbled some words cause everyone else was doing it.

    On the other side you could live a complete Christian life and do everything a good Christian is expected to do but if you are just doing the acts and could care less about God then you are wasting your time.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You are ignoring that I cited specific works that Jesus directed Christians to perform.

    Citing Matthew 25:30- end of chapter was not an accident.


    As to your mocking of the rituals of other religions, surely that is something to be avoided for several good reasons. Besides, the rituals within Christianity are numerous and highly varied by denomination. Might I mention that more than half of all Christianity invokes Mary as an important part of their religious exercise. And, morning prayers are important in Chistianity, too.
     
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  14. Robert Urbanek

    Robert Urbanek Active Member

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    Keeping track of what goes on in the minds of billions of people must be very taxing, even for a god. I can't imagine anyone enjoying that kind of job.
     
  15. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nothing wrong with doing rituals as they all mean something but none of them, whether you do them or not, impacts your salvation.

    You keep bringing up these supposed quotes by Jesus but you are leaving the one where He tells us He is the only way to go to Heaven.

    I mock them because I think they are dumb and a waste of time but if people want to do them then fine.
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I've already said numerous times that is true for your religion. I think we can move beyond that!!
    This is just another versionof what you said above!!
    Mocking someone's religion is disgusting and promotes all sorts of total crap behavior.

    You continue to dodge the only point I've been making - that Jesus DOES say that God may reject those who follow him if they ignore the duties that Christians have been given.

    Again and again, the question isn't whether a person of your religion can be saved only by accepting the atonement of the sacrifice of God's son. That is well documented by Christinan interpretation of the Bible. There may be sects where things get a little more comlicated, but I'm not addressing that AT ALL.

    The question IS whether there are cases where god may reject YOU because of failures of duty.

    And, I cited where Jesus described that.

    I AM interested in what you say about this. But, please move beyond the claim you repeatedly make that has nothing at all to do with this question.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    If I wanted to be snarky, I'd point out that the Pope leads more than half of all Christianity and helps god decide who should be excommunicated.

    Not serial rape of children, obviously, but stuff that's really sinful.
     
  18. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, God can reject you if you become saved then don't bother trying to live a Christian life.

    You don't get saved then go get baptized and consider it done. Getting baptized is fine but not necessary.
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    So, I think you really meant to say YES to what I said.

    At least I see no disagreement with anything I've said.

    Let me know, of course ...
     
  20. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't remember what you said but often I do not make my point clear. what I type and what my thought process is often are different.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Ok.

    Can you reconcile the acts and statements of Jesus requiring Christians to aid sinners without judgement and the Christian direction of denying aid to sinners even when it is against the law to do so?

    I'm NOT accusing YOU of this. I don't want this discussion to be personal like that in any way.

    But, it IS a serious direction of enough Christians in the USA that changes to law are considered likely - and in some cases have already been made to allow for this behavior.

    And, I just don't see how Christians can push for this direction in light of the life of Jesus and his direct statement in Matthew 25:30 on.
     
  22. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    It's reassuring to know that you can be a minimalist in the practice of your beliefs if you are a Christian. I don't consider myself a Christian for many reasons, but as of today, ritual and ceremony is not one of them.

    I can understand group worship. You want to feel to be a part of a tribe. A special club. You want friends that share your beliefs because you have an urge to express yourself. I also understand to some extent why you preach the gospel. You feel joy that you are "saved" and you want others to share in that joy even though you might appear judgmental to others.

    What I cannot understand is why you feel the need to make a performance out of your beliefs. "Hey everybody! Look at me accepting Christ by dunking my head in water and eating this bread and drinking this wine!"

    As a spiritual free thinker, my calling I feel is to meet people (nearly impossible with the pandemic) and be kind and friendly human being. I have no urge however to express where that friendliness and kindness comes from. I also hear the calling to strike down dangerous and backward ideas, but I have no desire to fill the space with other ideas that cannot be examined through science (though I might hold such ideas).
     
  23. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    One can have faith without exercising church-approved religious rituals. My grandmother was about as religious a person as I have ever met and she almost never went to church. She grew up in the middle of nowhere, never had a car, and getting to church would have been a major undertaking most of her life. If you wanted her at your wedding on something, you would have to come pick her up. She and my gfather were practically Quakers in how they lived their day to day lives. Very spartan existence.
     
  24. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    You can call yourself whatever you want but that is not being a Christian.
     
  25. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    I've already addressed it. I'm not sure what else you are looking for to be addressed...
     

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