Biden is no socialist

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Guy Marsh, Dec 12, 2020.

  1. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    It was more an observation, freedom8, but you are, of course, welcome.

    Yeah, my alluding to third-party candidates in the post to which you responded was rather unclear, and I apologize. I had Nader and others in mind while writing it but was too lazy to type the words.

    As a capitalist, a hypothetical President Perot would have made equally anti-worker decisions, capitalist media-created myths contrary.

    I'm not here to tell you nor anyone else what to do, but the thrust of my post was the need to support progressively-minded political candidates, preferably socialists. And by socialists, I do not mean those who masquerade as socialists, such as Bernie Sanders and AOC.

    I wouldn't claim that voting for the worse of two evils is any more beneficial than voting for, the lesser of two evils. From my vantage point, they are equals.

    Thank you for your intelligent and measured response, freedom8. Be well.

    *****

    Guy Marsh
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    What is socialism?
    http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm

    www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf

    deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm

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  2. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    The GOP is the swamp and has been 40 years. A huge giveaway to the rich and the screw job for everyone else. Only their garbage imaginary propaganda world makes it possible. So many phony scandals conspiracy theories and just plain misinformation. You have no evidence for anything you say. Look up reconciliation for GOP tax cuts and filabuster for Democratic reform..... Quite the GOP scam....
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  3. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    The hate for Hillary was based on 25 years of garbage GOP propaganda. And a Russian hack of the DNC computer that made up 60% of political coverage in 2016 and meant absolutely nothing. Our media is pathetic.
     
  4. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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  5. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    To say that the Right spent twenty-five years relentlessly attacking Hillary Clinton would be an understatement. To ignore her haughty behavior relative to her 2016 campaign would be to ignore reality. One cannot refer to millions of human beings as "deplorables," dismiss the legitimate concerns of coal miners and other workers, and disrespect Black Lives Matter activists while expecting to win the presidency.
     
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  6. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    That is correct, sir, "[t]here is no way in hell [I am] going to tell [you] that Obama would pick a racist for VP," nor have I said such a thing. Those are your words, not mine. Kamala Harris has contributed toward institutional racism, but I wouldn't classify her as a racist.
    So, too, did I not mention the corporate tool Jim Clyburn. Be well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  7. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    Just keep listening to GOP propaganda and smears with no evidence or basis in fact.... Half of the GOP base are deplorable in that they are brainwashed by total garbage propaganda. Fox Rush Limbaugh and internet and radio minions should be charged with terrorism for lying and scaring the hell out of their base with crap fear margarine hateful propaganda.....
     
  8. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    Madam, as a Marxist, I do, of course, not avail myself of GOP propaganda. I ignore Fox "News," Newsmax, and all other such "news" outlets. The only mainstream sources of news and information I do utilize daily are the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times. So your admonition was mislaid just as your loose grasp on political subtleties is evident.

    Now then, hellofromwarsaw, are you telling readers that Hillary Clinton did not refer to Republicans as "deplorables" and that she did not disrespect coal miners and Black Lives Matter activists during her 2016 presidential campaign?

    Well, now, it doesn't get much more reactionary than that, no?

    *****

    Guy Marsh
    Member (since 1990):
    Socialist Labor Party of America (est. 1890)
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    What is socialism?
    http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm

    www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf

    deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm

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  9. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    Her disrespect for minors is also total GOP or conservative b*******. She wanted to have a big training program for those who lost their job so they could get good paying alternative energy jobs. Hillary got shafted by the media. 60% of the political coverage was about emails that were total garbage and meant nothing.
     
  10. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    Yes, she did have such a plan. But, within the context of the comment in question, all she said was, "We're going to put a lot of coal companies and coal miners out of business." She made no mention of her plan. She made that comment in a most unempathetic manner, and she knew it because she later apologized. The GOP didn't make her say those things; she did it all by herself. That is one of the reasons why she lost.



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    Guy Marsh
    Member (since 1990):
    Socialist Labor Party of America (est. 1890)
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    What is socialism?
    http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm

    www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf

    deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm

    Former member: Peace & Freedom Party (1988-1990)
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  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sometimes I make the error of not keeping track of who I am replying to. The reply was meant to be directed at @Bow To The Robots guy, who accused Biden of being a racist.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Could you explain how you practice your Marxism?
     
  13. Oh Yeah

    Oh Yeah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's hard to be a socialist when your a greedy crook.
     
  14. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    Oh. I see. And here I thought that I was the only one to do that type of thing. :)

    Good evening
     
  15. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    I wrote: "Yeah, my alluding to third-party candidates in the post to which you responded was somewhat unclear, and I apologize. I had Nader and others in mind while writing it but was too lazy to type the words."

    Come to think of it, freedom8, no, at least not on the Left. Although Nader has never publicly called for social ownership and democratic administration of the means of production, I know him to be open to such a thing. One might also consider Dr. Jill Stien and Cynthia McKinney, but they are not so amenable. In case you're wondering, I have long written in the name Robert Bills while casting a vote relative to the presidency. (Robert Bills is the now-late General Secretary of the Socialist Labor Party of America http://www.slp.org/ .)

    I wrote: "As a capitalist, a hypothetical President Perot would have made equally anti-worker decisions, capitalist media-created myths contrary."

    Perot's having been a billionaire says it all. He stole billions of dollars worth of wealth created by the toil of other human beings through a legalized form of thievery known as private profit, which is the epitome of anti-worker.

    I wrote: "I'm not here to tell you nor anyone else what to do, but the thrust of my post was the need to support progressively-minded political candidates, preferably socialists. And by socialists, I do not mean those who masquerade as socialists, such as Bernie Sanders and AOC."

    No, there is not a single Democratic politician who is a socialist - not one, including AOC and Sanders, who support the socialization and democratization of this society's means of industrial production.

    As for what brand of socialism I favor, I support Marxian socialism, specifically Marxist-DeLeonism ( deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf .)

    I wrote: "I wouldn't claim that voting for the worse of two evils is any more beneficial than voting for the lesser of two evils. From my vantage point, they are equals."

    I don't know that it is better, but abstention (is) a significant statement. It says that one is, for whatever reason, aware of the fact that we have a one-party system with two nearly identical factions. And that one-party system does not serve the mass of workers. So those who abstain are perhaps the most politically astute of all.

    *****

    Guy Marsh
    Member (since 1990):
    Socialist Labor Party of America (est. 1890)
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    What is socialism?
    http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm

    www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf

    deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm

    Former member: Peace & Freedom Party (1988-1990)
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  16. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    In the U.S., Marxist thought is just that - thought with few if any examples of Marxist practices. A few politicians, such as AOC and Bernie Sanders, have garnered popularity by serving up what has been passed off as Marxist critiques of capitalism. In practice, however, U.S. policies and laws continue to show a society devoted to the capitalist system of production.

    Within Western society in general, Marxism is rare, restricted predominately to academia. To a certain extent, that is a result of Marxism's failure to garner support amongst workers. Its lack of support is rooted in capitalist culture's ability to convince workers that Marxism is an "evil" subject matter not worth their time. As a result, and as a whole, the working class hasn't an understanding of its actual standing within capitalist society. The fact that many workers have been conditioned to believe they are capitalists is enough to understand that point.

    Nevertheless, Marxism continues to create a lot of theoretical value concerning the assorted aspects of capitalist society. Such research makes up a robust critique of capitalist production, yet without allowing the practical tools needed to bring about revolutionary change. That process has widened the already large gap between Marxian theory and political and social practices.

    On a personal level, though I lived in Nicaragua and worked with the Sandinista's in the 1980s, worked on literacy campaigns in Guatemala and El Salvador during the '80s and '90s, lived with and helped to organize immigrant farmworkers in California's San Joaquin Valley, etc., never have I practiced Marxism. Although I have always been motivated by a sense of duty instilled in me by my study of Marxism, never have the material and political requisites presented themselves in a way that would make that possible. I and all other Marxists have always toiled within what Marx and Engels referred to as "the capitalist superstructure or base." Never have I harbored the illusion of the contrary, for that would be unrealistic and irresponsible. Socialist society has yet to exist anywhere on Earth, and we cannot afford to pretend otherwise. Our goal is to establish a socialist society eventually, but our practices occur within a capitalist society, period.

    *****

    Guy Marsh
    Member (since 1990):
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    What is socialism?
    http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm

    www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf

    deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm

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  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. Let me try asking this another way ..... aside from 'thought' (which has little value in the absence of action, obviously), what are you DOING in your daily life which supports collectivism? How do you live the change you seek?

    Because it sounds to me (and I'm hoping to stand corrected) that you're merely appeasing yourself by 'thought', but living and enjoying a wholly capitalist individualist life. Telling yourself socialism is impossible and that's why you do nothing, is the standard Leftist disclaimer. Demand something none actually want (mandatory collectivism), because they know it'll never happen. This allows them to sit in their individually occupied private homes, in their capitalism produced armchairs, and think thoughts guilt free.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  18. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    you talk of capitalism as if it is an evil we need to rid ourselves from but if you truly have studied your history, you will realize that capitalism is what has actually has liberated us from evils of socialism and communism where people have been controlled by authoritarian leaders as only authoritarians and dictators can force communism and socialism into free societies. The socialists always market themselves as the saviors and only ones who can eradicate poverty but all the do is double down on poverty, the rich get poorer and the poor get poorer. These are the teachings from Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez, who promised to eradicate poverty and fight the evils of capitalism, yet all they did was make everyone poor..

    here's a fact. If you pool together all the Americans who are consisted 'poor' by America's standards, they are, on average, better off and richer than the average citizens in Cuba, Venezuela and even China! That's right, the average poor person in US is better off than the avg person in all of China. This is the difference between capitalism and communism/socialism. I'm not talking about the leftist capitalism we see in Europe, that is still capitalism... i'm talking about real socialism and communism where the state takes ownership and controls private sector.

    but on Biden... Biden is ok... but chances are, at 78 and frail, he won't last... Then we will see socialism be unleashed.. or it will be attempted, Americans aren't ready though... Most Americans are still smarter than allowing socialism to prevail...
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  19. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Guy Marsh has said he is a socialist, as am I. Are you saying we are evil?
     
  20. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    you're not, you just prefer a society to be poorer overall instead of a society where even the poor fare better than they do in a socialist/communist society. Perhaps some view those who want socialism as evil as many socialists are not rich and they prefer everyone to be poorer instead of seeing very very rich people at the top even if the poor in such system are better off than they would be in a socialist system. I guess some view this as evil... i think just misguided.

    China has learned that communism doesn't work, it's a bad formula and has been becoming more and more capitalist and prospering... However, it has a long way to go and this is why if you just take the poor people in US, they are richer than the average citizen of China. For all the talk about inequality what people like you fail to comprehend is that, yes, there is inequality in a capitalist system but even the ones at the bottom are better off than the avg. Citizen in a communist/socialist society. Again, the avg. poor person is US is richer than the avg. person in China and much richer than avg. person in Cuba or Venezuela.

    and don't talk to me about Nordic systemic, that is a free market capitalist society which is able to support generous entitlements. Nordic system is capitalism with collective bargaining... It's truly stunning that Bernie states he wants the Nordic system but the cornerstone of Bernie's policies is min wage, which doesn't even exist in Nordic model!! stunning!

    Nordic model is NOT socialism. Socialism, in it's truest sense is government exerting control over businesses.. Nordic system is nothing of the sort, it is free market capitalism that has been so successful that it has yielded enough money to provide for a welfare state. Nordic system is FREE MARKET CAPITALISM combined with high taxation in return for generous entitlements. There is NO MIN. WAGE but collective bargaining setting the price of labor.

    TRUE SOCIALSIM IS DISASTROUS... and history has proven it, time and time and time again. It's why every prosperous economy has moved away from socialism to free market capitalism and let's stop confusing true socialism to free market capitalist societies which are efficient and are able to support generous entitlements. BIG DIFFERENCE.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
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  21. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    You are, if you have understood Socialism to the last consequence, but still prefer it. Otherwise, you are just gullible and will have to repeat mistakes that many others have made before you.

     
  22. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    OK. Personnaly, I don't want the Communist system either, but I have 2 questions:

    1) Isn't the US rich enough to afford a welfare system, albeit less generous than the Nordic one?

    2) Would a minimum wage be such a big danger for US Capitalism? Most European countries have a minimum wage; it doesn't make them communist countries.
     
  23. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    A partial answer to your questions, freedom8, lies within the reading of Russell Kirk's "The Conservative Mind" and Lewis Powell's "The Powell Memorandum: Attack on the Free Enterprise System." Be well.

    *****

    Guy Marsh
    Member (since 1990):
    Socialist Labor Party of America (est. 1890)
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    What is socialism?
    http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm

    www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf

    deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm

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  24. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    I answered that question within the post to which you responded by writing: "On a personal level, though I lived in Nicaragua and worked with the Sandinista's in the 1980s, worked on literacy campaigns in Guatemala and El Salvador during the '80s and '90s, lived with and helped to organize migrant farmworkers in California's San Joaquin Valley, etc., never have I practiced Marxism. Although I have always been motivated by a sense of duty instilled in me by my study of Marxism, never have the material, and political requisites presented themselves in a way that would make that possible."

    So, though I would be delighted to elaborate, crank, I need to ask you for contextual purposes; what exactly is your idea of "collectivism in action" within the context of contemporary American society? Thank you, sir.

    (Collectivism: "A political or economic theory advocating collective control, especially over production and distribution" --Marriam-Webster.)

    *****

    Guy Marsh
    Member (since 1990):
    Socialist Labor Party of America (est. 1890)
    http://www.slp.org/

    What is socialism?
    http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm

    www.slp.org/pdf/statements/siu_chart.pdf

    deleonism.org/industrial-government.htm

    Former member: Peace & Freedom Party (1988-1990)
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  25. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    @pitbull and people like him don't know what socialism is ...... AT ALL! All they have guiding their ideas about what it is, is 80 years of propaganda. And it is so ingrained that if you suggest to them that they are spouting very old propaganda, they will tell you they don't read and don't accept propaganda without ever noticing that IF THEY DID RECOGNIZE IT, it would fail in its only purpose!

    And for you I will categorically state that communist society CANNOT be imposed on a nation by force or in any other way. And since this thread is not about that, I would be happy to discuss this in another thread if you're interested.

    Beyond that, the answer to your "1" is that I and others have showed that we certainly can afford a very good welfare system. Recall that we are frequently reminded that this is "the richest country in the world", which it is. So who has all those riches? How much has the bottom half of America shared in those riches over the last 40 years?

    If we were to return to the tax brackets that existed when Reagan took office but without most of the loopholes for the rich that were included, and if we added to that with a 1% wealth tax on all wealth exceeding $10 million, we could very easily be giving a monthly $2,000 check to every person who is suffering financially due to COVID and the unemployment it brought us, and thereby stop all evictions and foreclosures and increase in homelessness resulting from this crisis, and we could do this until the crisis ended WITHOUT INCREASING THE NATIONAL DEBT ONE PENNY.

    2. A minimum wage of $12-15/hour would wash out a few businesses that don't deserve to be operating due to being unable to pay people properly for their work. And studies show that within 5 years the economy would be in better shape for it. I completely disagree with the idea of pulling out all the stops to ensure that every business anyone ever thought of should have the best economic opportunities to succeed.
     

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