Do you believe that Trump is responsible for the storming of the Capitol?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Reasonablerob, Jan 7, 2021.

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Do you believe Donald Trump is responsible for the storming of the Capitol?

  1. Yes, absolutely, he wanted it to establish a dictatorship

    16 vote(s)
    25.8%
  2. Yes to a degree, his words spurred this and he knew it was a possibility

    20 vote(s)
    32.3%
  3. Impossible to say

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No although I could see how people might think that if they misinterpreted his remarks.

    9 vote(s)
    14.5%
  5. No, it's an absurd allegation.

    17 vote(s)
    27.4%
  1. maxLiberal

    maxLiberal Banned

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  2. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    So why do you suppose they (reuters) are failing here?
     
  3. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    How many cops did BLM kill again?
     
  4. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    Now that private companies have blocked the profile of a public officer [nothing less than the President ...], probably it would be better to wonder if those giant Social Network are not controlling the political life of the world using the excuse that being private subjects they can ban who they want.

    About this, I have to complain. If a private service becomes a public service "de facto" it should follow the rules of public services.
    A public service cannot ban the President.

    I have left Trump, politically, but to see private businessmen [who don't respond to the electorate] banning an elected representative of the People ... well ... this makes me think a bit about the future of the United States.

    Which will it be? If your name doesn't become with a nice "J" and your surname doesn't become with a nice "B" you are going to be banned? Or what?

    I say this because the great Social Networks, which are playing the role of the heroes, should explain why they haven't banned Trump years ago.
    It's easy to ban who has already lost to make the figure of the hero. FB, Twitter and the others have been accomplices of Trump for years [just giving him room] and now they play the role of the angels: hypocrites.
     
  5. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    You missed the big point of my post. It is no different in that in both cases, a prosecutor has to assess which crimes may have been committed by a specific person ( as opposed to group) and a judge/ jury needs to decide which specific persons are guilty of which charges and and an appropriate sentence for the crime. I am not comparing the potential crimes in each ( a theft in one with a murder in another) but the process by which we determine justice.
     
  6. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you deliberately not getting what the constitutional right of free speech is all about? Are you one of them socialists who want to control the means of production?

    As is typical with the grievance crowd confusing cause with effect, you mistake the scope of your argument for my myopia.
     
  7. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    They're not, they're telling the truth. It's the Trump supporters who are promulgating a known falsehood.
     
  8. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Hey, Luke -- Where have you been? I haven't seen you in a very long time. Are you still in the northern, German-speaking region of Italy?

    The 'future' of the United States now resembles that of a pile of dog sh!t. It will attract flies while it's still 'juicy', but then it will become dry and brittle. Eventually, the Russians and the Chinese will just sweep it away. But that will take about ten more years, so, let's have fun until it happens. Might as well -- we're going to have the hell taxed out of us to pay for a government that only half of us wanted.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  9. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry man, but I am experiencing shuddering episodes of shadenfreude. I feel sorry for the gullible acolytes, but I am absolutely loving the fact that Trump has revealed the true depths of his incompetent intellectually depraved meglomania.

    When I see the nazis and the white nationalists and the QAnon clowns acting like the cretins they are for the world to see, not to mention the launch of the digital pogrom, well, talk about orgasms.

    Not proud, but feeling pretty damn smug. And I'm not even American.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  10. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    The Walser are here around ... [wir können Deutsch / we speak German] I'm still in the extreme North of Italy [among the Alps, next to Switzerland], after being in UK, US [New York, downtown], Norway, again in Paris ... I've been around.
     
  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    I might have answered YES to the question had it asked 'Do you believe Donald Trump is responsible for encouraging a confrontation in DC ' or something similar. The problem is I don't think anyone, least of all Trump expected the demonstrators to actually gain access to the Capitol Building. I doubt most of the protestors really expected it either.

    Everyone was expecting a confrontation, no-one was expecting the DC Police response to fall short the way it did. So from Trumps perspective it quickly turned into one of those 'draining the swamp' things. Perhaps he even enjoyed the initial theater of it all for a moment or two (he has the ego for it) but unless the man is entirely clueless I suspect the saw the political chasm opening up under his feet pretty quickly. When it was far, far to late.

    That said I think it's pretty clear Trump wanted a show of force, a spectacle that would both fan his ego and show the his political opponents and backers how much influence he still had. And that means he wears the blame for that element of the fiasco, if not the actual storming of the Capitol building. You encourage a riot to start you've got to be ready to accept the consequences, even ones that come totally from out off left field.

    And yes I'd let him off even on that issue if he had even once cautioned his supporters to obey the law and show restraint and moderation when demonstrating. He didn't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  12. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which option for 'Yes, absolutely, though he isn't responsible for a few bad apples ruining it with violence and crime, as he called for none of that.' (basically, I agree with you, but I think folks are jumping to an =/= conclusion with with the word 'storm').
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  13. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am comparing different things: when BLM broke into stores and stole some product, they robbed private property.
    When Trump supporters broke into the Capitol Hill, does not matter which item they stole, they wanted to steal DEMOCRACY from all Americans.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  14. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    This was planned, not just an accident. If they had caught some Senators or Reps, they would have killed them or held hostage. It would have given Bunker Boy the chance to declare material law, suspend Congress. That's what some of his advisers wanted to do in the swing states.

    They wanted to pull an Adolf.
    15 Capitol police " officers " are under investigation.

    Everybody knew all hell would brake lose on Wednesday. The Internet was full of it. There were no Federal Police, no National Guard, as they were deployed during the BLM protests. No 10 feet riot fencing.
    Nothing.
    Bunker Boy did not call the National Guard in, it was Pence.
    Bunker Boy and dripping Rudy called Senators, during the riots to pressure them to contest the electoral votes.
    He did not care.
    When it was clear that all Senators, clerks, Reps were in safe spaces, he finally gave this strange video speech, trying to save a little, full of all the lies of a stolen election. We love you.
    A looser who recognized the coup had failed.
     
  15. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear you weren't one of those who kept saying ''you lost, get over it'' or ''elections have consequences''.
    There were plenty who did though.
     
  16. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see it as a complicated problem. This is a "free" service and probably everyone who signed to FB, Twitter or Youtube signed an agreement to follow company rules, so I think is was 'legal' to drop anyone. I don't care about Trump, for his lies he deserved to be dropped but I remember Twitter dropped journalist of NYP who wrote something about Hunter Biden. I think we need competition to FB, Twitter or Youtube, meantime Parler cannot find Internet services:
    https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/parler-sues-amazon-antitrust-contract-breach

    Doesn't look good.
     
  17. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Well, whoever or whatever you are, I wish you joy. I wish all of us joy. It won't last for too long, but, what the hell.....
     
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  18. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    It is great to see that you are back! You have arrived at an interesting time -- just in time to watch everything over here go from bad to worse, and then plot out a course to "die Götterdämmerung".

    It's OVER for us... learn Russian or Mandarin Chinese.... We will have it easier -- for NOW we only have to learn Spanish, because Central America and Mexico are going to empty-out over our southern border SOON....

    And our new president hasn't even mastered English yet....

    [​IMG]. "Not true, ya dog-faced-pony-soldier-whatever-the-hell-I-was-talking-about...." :psychoitc:
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  19. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    You don’t think he’d anticipated this outcome when he made his appeal to his folllowers?
     
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  20. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Don't confuse what they actually were doing ( we both agree here), with what they 'wanted to do'. You are trying to get inside their heads and assuming they are all the same, and they may not have all had the same idea of what 'democracy' demanded or what their role was. Some people are dumber, more malleable and gullible than others. In any rate, motive itself is only one factor and it is best determined and weighed in a sentencing hearing by a judge who is hearing the arguments of defense counsel and the state on motive, not you or I based on the limited amount of information we get from news media about a group who's behavior we detest.

    You are not even asking any questions about those BML activists really wanted or thought they wanted, who entered that store. Some may have been greedy for the shoes, some may be addicted to the groupthink and peer unity of the moment or adrenalin rush and just grabbed the shoes. Others just liked the look of terror on the face of the clerk as she wondered who or what was likely going to meet that baseball bat. or that brick next, especially after she saw that extra threatening gesture as they pulled their right hand back as though ready to strike.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  21. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    These rioters did not all have the same plan before they got to the scene of the crime, or behave in the same way once they got there, and they were not thinking the same thoughts, whether it was in the streets of Portland or in the Capital building in Washington.
     
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  22. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm just a retired ol' Canadian pot smoking happily married father of four Liberal (Cdn).
    I am extremely bigotted against nazis, holocaust deniers and white nationalists and racists of all colors, hence my guilty delight at their pain and misfortune.
    I agree it won't last long, which is why I am savoring the rushes.
     
  23. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Good for you, Jonsa. Part of the joy I wish you is in knowing that the Nazis were overthrown 75 years ago, the Jewish people regained their homeland (even though I'm not Jewish), and that the only real 'racism' I've experienced in my long lifetime was that enacted against White people in the U. S. with 'reverse discrimination' (i.e., "Affirmative Action").

    Here in the States, we made ALL of our citizens fully equal BEFORE THE LAW with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 -- and that was a very good thing, indeed! But then the 'reverse discrimination' crap started full-force here in the 1970's, and just when things were really on the right trajectory for all American citizens to live in peaceful harmony as a 'colorblind' society.

    Fast-forward to 2021, and now hope for anything of lasting worth and value in our country is fading fast. Down here, we Americans have been in an ever-more agitated state of political 'trench warfare' than ever before, while the Russian-Chinese alliance grows more effective and powerful every day. In another 10 years we'll pushed so far back into a dark corner that our presence won't even exist in a meaningful way in the entire Eastern Hemisphere, and we'll be fading fast in the Western Hemisphere as the Chinese employ the same kind of successful tactics in South America that they are using so cleverly throughout Asia, Africa, and now, into Europe, too.

    I don't smoke dope or anything else... bad for the lungs, you know. Good rye whiskey is my 'bad'.... But take a big toke for me and dream a pleasant dream. I figure we've got about another 10 years before Russia and China 'bring the curtain down'. And in Canada, you may be able to escape the worst aspects of our 'decline and fall' altogether.... Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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  24. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I don't think he anticipated what this crowd would do. And that's part of a pattern of behavior we've seen in Trump from the beginning -- 'shooting from the hip' without rationally considering the full measure of possible effects.

    It's hard to read a mind as erratic, introverted, and confrontational as Trump's is, but my guess is that he thought his followers would go over to the Capitol and conduct a noisy, boisterous, 'holy hell' demonstration there, and that it would signal to Congress the very deep, very real displeasure that so many American citizens feel right now.

    If I had been Trump on that day, I'd have given my supporters a rousing speech, but I'd have closed with an admonition and warning -- "Now, go and tell those liberal, 'woke' sons-of-bitches in Congress that 'you're mad as hell and you aren't going to take it anymore' -- BUT -- do not behave like ANTIFA, BLM, and Left-wing radical groups do! Do NOT commit any acts of violence! Don't smash anything up, burn, loot, or destroy anything. Conduct yourselves in a way that reflects honorably upon yourselves and our Constitution! Now, go and exercise your right to peacefully assemble and express yourselves!" :smile:

    Yeah... but I'm not the President of the United States. :lonely:
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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  25. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty big deficit in a POTUS.
     
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