Is there anyone Trump hasn’t turned on?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Coachac, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. nobodyspecific

    nobodyspecific Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Muslims - Travel ban. Loss of freedom of movement.
    Immigrants - Forced removal from the country, detention. Loss of home (property). Loss of liberty (detention). Loss of children (pursuit of happiness).
    Journalists - Slander. Loss of safety and property. Unlike the previous 2, the mob has come for them:



     
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  2. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, I hope it was more than $8,000. Anything less than that didn't help the lawsuit fund, at all.
     
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  3. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He absolutely turned on you. Me, too, for that matter. All of us. Due to his theatrics, he cost republicans The Senate. Now the democrats can do whatever they like for the next two years, and democrats can scream, "elections have consequences!"

    It's gonna be great.

    *******. We had a split government, and he blew it.
     
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  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Muslims can travel as freely as anyone else.

    Illegal immigrants are welcome to come back via a legal process, like everyone else.

    Journalists are subject to the same dynamics of supply and demand as everyone else. If they want to be rewarded, they should be honest. When they lie, they lose their value as journalists. Its no ones fault but their own.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  5. nobodyspecific

    nobodyspecific Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not when a travel ban prevents them from doing so.

    First, that is a victimless crime. It is as pointless as the drug war, and the war on sex.

    Second, the Trump administration has created greater restrictions on legal immigration. Legally immigrating can take decades.

    Third, your excusing the removal of liberty, because of the current illegality, without being willing to defend the law behind it, is an act of deifying the law itself. You do not bother to ask the question if it should be a law. If, for example, there was no such thing as illegal immigration, and over night a new law was passed to make some immigration illegal, would you defend this new law as being somehow not removing liberty? Or take for example if the democrats pass a new law removing the right to bear some kinds of arms, but allow others, would you see this as a removal of liberty?

    Sure, being attacked by an angry mob sounds perfectly in line with a free market. The mentality of MSM = all fake news that has been driven home by the Trump and RW media is the biggest, most important lie of them all. MSM is biased, it is not all together fictional. But when you can get your tribe to believe that anyone who might say differently than you is not only lying, but an active enemy, then that is how you can create a "cult" following that is all about the defense of the tribe and exultation of the leader as the one true arbiter of truth.

    The violent attacks on journalists are the direct result of this brainwashing. They are inexcusable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no, nor ever has been, a travel ban against Muslims. There have been travel bans from regions that are known to harbor terrorists that also tend to be predominantly Muslim... but any link link between Islam and terrorism is bigoted, so its purely coincidental.

    Thats like saying tax evasion is a victimless crime. I happen to agree, but I'm betting you don't agree that depriving impoverished Americans of an ample safety net is 'victimless.' Whadya think?

    And what do you mean by 'the war on sex'?

    No, the Trump admin put restrictions on political asylum- namely, that asylum seekers cant live here while awaiting a hearing. Asylum seekers are different from immigrants. Its true that Trump didn't get immigration reform passed. But you can thank congress for that.

    The American social safety nets are built by Americans, for Americans. They don't work if they're by Americans, for anyone that wants to come here. I hope you don't need a basic economics explanation as to why...

    Yes, unless the law is a constitutional amendment. I will vote right now to add a constitutional amendment banning the private ownership and manufacture of nuclear/biological/chemical weapons, indirect-fire explosives and suppressive automatic firearms. Thats how things are supposed to be banned in a constitutional republic- with an amendment to the constitution.

    Can you cite Trump or any politician calling for journalists to be attacked? If not, then you're trying to blame the actions of a few criminals on an entire political party/movement. If thats how you wanna go, then lets talk 'Anti'Fa and BLM. I personally prefer to hold individuals accoubtable for their own individual actions, but if we're collectively responsible for other people's actions, then everyone is guilty.
     
  7. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    DUHHHH. Ever wonder why he loves you? Re-read post #5.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  8. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious to know what you consider is a 'few'.
     
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  9. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    :lol: As Elsa Lanchester is reported to have opined about Maureen O'Hara, "She looks as if butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Or anywhere else."
     
  10. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    You gave money to Trump. So you did as much as any of them to damage it and America.
     
  11. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I know many people who were never turned on by him.
     
  12. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    Hard to believe she would be turned on now, except by the book offer she'll receive.
     
  13. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A few hundred out of a few hundred thousand , or around 0.1%, qualifies as a few.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  14. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    So 99.9% were spectators. Interesting.
     
  15. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You've ruined the thread title for me. Thanks. I can no longer read it as was intended.
     
  16. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are saying it was a few hundred thousand? I was thinking 10K.

    Also, far more than 100 got in the building.
     
  17. nobodyspecific

    nobodyspecific Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While the text of what was done was to ban travel from specific nations, it does not absolve it's originating reasons, nor does it change the fact that these were targeted towards Muslims. As has been documented by Cato, Trump specifically wanted to "look at the Muslim ban", but required advice on how to make that work legally. The fact that it was a rule designed to target Muslisms is incidental. Further attempts to argue this misses the point of why it is important.

    Your original statement of "hasn't tried to infringe on any of my rights" illustrates that you are considering only what affects you personally. This decision did not make the nations safer. What it did was intrude on the liberty of others who are not yourself. It is more unnecessary big government security theater that results in the depriving of the liberty of people.

    I believe the quote from Bastiat can illustrate to you my opinion on this:

    Generally, I would consider it legalized theft.

    Illegality of various sex related things. There are a lot of them. The one that causes the most suffering is the illegality of prostitution. But there are a litany of others sex and sex related things such as: laws against adultery, laws against polygamy, laws against incest, illegality of distribution of obscenity across state lines (porn), designation of art (ie: drawings, 3d, etc) that can make you criminally liable for posession of child porn. The "marriage between one man and one woman" nonsense conservatives put the nation through in the past decade was mercifully and rightfully struck down, but our society is a long way from being tollerant of leaving individuals alone in their intimate affairs.

    Oh, the admin did more than that.
    In 2017, Trump quickly used an execute order to cut the number of refugees admitted down from 110K to 50K.
    In 2017, the admin cut the number of refugees that would be admitted to the country down from 50K to 45K.
    In 2018, the admin cut the number of refugees that would be admitted to the country down from 45K to 30K.
    In 2019, the admin cut the number of refugees that would be admitted to the country down from 30K to 18K.
    In 2020, the admin cut the number of refugees that would be admitted to the country down from 18K to 15K.

    There is a pretty long record on the limitations of legal immigration the Trump admin has imposed besides just asylum, but I don't want to make this post longer than necessary.

    I do not see how this is even remotely relevant to my point. This does nothing to defend laws regarding legal immigration targets. This does not defend the limitation and slowing grant of green cards. It does not defend the deportation of those who have been living here, contributing to society, working jobs for years, and are deported because of either something they did a long time ago, or something their parents did.

    I do not mind a requirement that immigrants, asylum seekers, or permanent residents be restricted from partaking in social safety nets. You seem to be reading things into my words that do not exist.

    Well stated. Excellent response.

    It's unnecessary. Hateful language uttered by leaders assist with the radicalization of a population. If the Ayatollah were to call Christians evil. That they always lie and cannot be trusted. That they are the enemy of the people, but stopped just short of calling for violence against them. If he were to preach this for years in an environment where before he spoke these words, there was no serious animosity toward Christans. And then some followers of the Ayatollah ended up attacking the Christians because they were Christian, using the same language as the Ayatollah. Using your logic, you would indicate the Ayatollah is blameless in this.

    Words matter. Especially when spoken by leaders. They are the most important when spoken by the leaders with the most followers. The words spoken by the president about the media are dangerously negligent and have instilled within some of his followers a violent hostility toward them that did not previously exist. He is culpable in the creation of this environment.

    Your attempts to engage in a whataboutism with Anti'Fa and BLM is immaterial and does nothing to assist your argument. Remember, you are defending the Trump administration, and Trump himself. I am not defending Democrats. Your position is only made weaker by the argument of "Trump is just as bad as the Democrats". Demand better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As these things often are these days, the numbers of attendence differ wildly depending on the source, from 10's of thousands to a million. However the reports of how many actually engaged in crime are pretty close- between a hundred and two hundred. Any way you slice it, it was a 'mostly peaceful protest' with a very tiny minority engaging in any crime at all and most of that was tantamount to trespassing. Those that engaged in violence, theft and vandalism were far fewer still, and an indeterminable number of them were most assuredly agent provacateurs. Sadly, not all of them were agent provacateurs...
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  19. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It was mostly peaceful, compared to what was called mostly peaceful this summer.

    The people that got inside, though, appeared to have help. It's becoming more obvious that there was inside help.
     
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  20. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ah, so as usual it boils down not to what Trump actually says nor what Trump actually does, but how people are reacting to what he says and does and how they (mis)interpret.

    No one that voted Trump voted for a moral compass or a role model or a social guide. He was elected to put America first and that is all. And no, he hasn't done a perfect job of it. Just a way better one than anyone in recent history. Its too bad that that isn't saying much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  21. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Absolutely there was inside help. 'Anti'Fa was pre-positioned, the crowd was tear-gassed before any violence or crime occurred, there was reduced security presence, folks invited in through certain areas while forcefully restricted from entering at through others... its almost like TPTB wanted an army of Trump supporters to tear the capital apart on camera. But surely not... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  22. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No evidence it was anything except Trump supporters. Several were given tours days before, by republican congressmen.
     
  23. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you trying to tell me you honestly think 'Anti'Fa would miss an event like that?
     
  24. Coachac

    Coachac Well-Known Member

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    Yeah apparently way too many meanings in my title. Apparently I’m a creative genius. Who new :laughing:
     
  25. Independent4ever

    Independent4ever Well-Known Member

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    Maybe turning on Gulliani. CNN claiming that Trump told staff to stop paying his legal fees

    In fairness - based on the value of those services, nothing is owed
     

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