To Impeach Trump or?? Consequences for Inciting Insurrection.

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by MiaBleu, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your prerogative. And, although an answer more detailed than "I reject your suggestion [h]as not very well thought out" is certainly not demanded, it would lend more creditability to your response.
     
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your answer is in the post you responded to -

    If you want to claim that those who protest against the Gov't are guilty of "Sedition" - Fine .. but have you considered what precedent this sets.
     
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  3. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not all of them. Biden can pardon them. I'll guess no more than a couple of hundred were knowingly involved and those should be prosecuted. And, of course, we have the right to protest peacefully and in accordance with local ordnances.
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't see what Biden Pardoning has to do with it .. and what do you mean "not all of them" People are calling this protest "Domestic Terrorism" .. that is the claim on the table .. so yes - its all of them - which is just one of the reasons why this is bad precedent.

    "Knowingly involved" Good point - as we need both actus rea and mens rea to find someone guilty of a crime

    So A) had to have committed the crime ;.. as per Rule of Law principle - one is not to be punished for the actions of another and

    B) the person had to have intended it.

    The term "Sedition" is completely wrong. This was not a plot to overthrow the Gov't - and no one in their right mind involved in the protest would think that somehow they could take over the Gov't..

    When was the meeting where the conspirators and Trump sat down - and Planned to overthrow the Gov't via armed insurrection ...

    This is ridiculous.
     
  5. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hahahaaha. Oh you are a slippery one. Again. I don't give a crap what your opinion of if the lowlifes who attacked, entered and vandalized the Capitol are domestic terrorists or not. They were involved in sedition and insurrection. Don't want to apply the domestic terrorist label to them, don't. Your objection to alternative interpretations is noted.

    AS for true authoritarian, it did rear its ugly head and in the aftermath they are going to get stomped on rather severely. Fascist swine trying to overturn a legitimate certifed election on the basis of the fountain of utter butt hurt bullshit your Dear Leader and his toadies continued to spew is all the motivation that anti american deep state needs..

    I take immense satisfaction in the failure of this amateur hour 1776 facist reenactment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
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  6. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see...you think the Representatives and Senators and VP were escorted to safe rooms just for a break? Yeah...since millions of people watched it happen I'd say it qualifies as a violation of Title 18 U.S.C. Paragraph 2384, in regard to delaying the execution of any law of the United States. I'd also be relatively sure that you realize there is a non-violent way to protest legally and to challenge current law through the courts. And, you may also know that "mens rea" may.. be proven by either a confession by the accused (even if it's in plain sight) and/or a preponderance of the evidence...such as witness testimony. And, actus rea? Hahahaha...you're joking right? It was televised by all of the major media.
    I expect more evidence to come, but any good attorney could put together a pretty good case with just what Trump, Navarro, and Rudy have said publicly.
    I'd say there is a fair chance of him being arrested right after he leaves the Presidency.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
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  7. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are building strawman and projecting. My opinion of these protestors is irrelevant.

    I asked you for your definition - and what you gave was authoritarianism on steroids - You claim that any group who protests against the Gov't - and ends up casing damage to a Gov't building akin to this event - are "Terrorists"

    OK - go it - no butt- hurt on this end - I can't stand Trump... What is painful is your disregard for the rule of law - and principles of justice.

    You seem to have no idea what the future ramifications of the precedent you desperately yearn for - La dee da dee da... Completely blind to anything else around you in your Trump Rage ..

    but that's you - not me - so quit trying to project your infantile ability to argue your way out of a wet paper bag - onto me .. along with your other disturbing emotional states.
     
  9. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Fake News. Trump's not guilty of "inciting an insurrection" and everyone knows it. You just don't like what he said, and like the National Socialists, you think if you don't like what someone says that it should be illegal for them to say it. Sorry, that's not how it works here in 'Merica.

    EVERYTHING’S POLITICAL AND IT’S ALL LIES: Nancy Pelosi’s waiting games prove ‘boot Trump’ movement is just another political ploy.

    [​IMG]
    Perhaps the most vile Speaker in US History.
    It's 73 feet Crazy Nancy's door to Mitch McConnell's. It took her several weeks last time after this liar claimed it was of the "utmost urgency" that we impeach Trump. But she screwed around and screwed around and finally transmitted the articles, completely paralyzing the Senate's ability to do anything else, right as COVID was insinuating itself into the US.
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are way off on a different page .. Trump did not escort any people into safe rooms - but ok .. folks took refuge from a protest that turns violent .. Got it.

    So - from now on - we call all such folks who engage in protest against the Gov't - where that protest turns violent or does damage - "Domestic Terrorists" .. Good . Lovely ..

    And how is this not "Authoritarian" ? - how does the punishment fit the crime ? Who do you charge ... is the someone who incites a group to do one thing .. but then that group does another thing .. responsible for all ? - or is every protester who was there responsible for the actions of the group..

    You haven't considered these thing - which is why I am here to remind you of the consequences of your actions.
     
  11. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    In re the bolded:

    Do you really think they're going to come out and TELL us about it?
     
  12. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    "Trump's not guilty of "inciting an insurrection" and everyone knows it."-


    Everyone??
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course not - but so what - last time I checked .. innocent until proven guilty was still around.

    and you miss the central point completely - in that what ever Trump is guilty of - the planning that went on - calling this protest "Terrorism" sets the bar extremely low.

    and no - we don't get to make up things -- and base it on that - If Trump was in some back room planning a kidnapping - assassination - or mass destruction .. Sure - we could discuss the terrorism label..

    but this is not what happened . and you have no evidence that Trump did any of this.
     
  14. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    No direct forensic evidence no, but that is NOT the same as saying it did not happen

    You don't need to absolutely convict someone just to make the charge
     
  15. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  16. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    They did not sit down and plan it. That is not how Trump influenced them. He has had a following for some time....... and they happen to be rather devoted.......almost fanatical. So all he had to do is i infer an aggressive action........they interpreted it the way they wanted to........or how they assumed Trump meant it. Trummp never gives a direct (obvious)order for anything like that. His followers seem t understand what he is saying.......even if it i s veiled.(vague)
    Those who acted violently and ruined what could have been an ordinary protest are responsible for their behavior. and for allowing themselves to take what Trump said as instructions for violence. Trump is responsible for his negative and inciteful language. He could not handle losing and decided to make things as bad as he could during the transition and for Biden. He could not pull it out of himself to act like he statesman he should be by now.

    The violent mob were barbaric. acting as if they were taking over some medevil castle. and Trump loves them.
     
  17. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well...if the shoe fits wear it. I'll wait for the investigations to complete before I reach any final confusion. I expect, however, a wide range of charges from trespassing to murder. I doubt many of those who broke in will receive sedition charges...but perhaps a few...including a few of the Capitol Police and possibly a few in the White House and a few outsiders. Maybe less than 100 for sedition, murder charge (not necessarily related to sedition), theft, breaking and entering, and other lesser charges. And, the Feds will do their usual negotiating with the lower charged to reach the higher sedition linked leaders. Some will also be charged with domestic terrorism, but certainly not all. As to your questions...don't know. Depends on what the investigation turns up.
    What things haven't I considered? Why would you "remind" me of the "consequences" of my actions? What actions? What consequences?
     
  18. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    they may be disturbing emotional states to some, but my expression of disdainful disgust and intense dislike of people who subscribe to certain political and social ideologies predicated on grievance, racism, exclusion and hate, while excusing and perpetuating inequality and exploitation, is by design. I hate the haters back in simplistic terms. It makes them uncomfortable and irritable when they are confronted with a small taste of what theiir expression of bigoted hostile attitudes are like.

    As to the rest, again. I just don't give a crap. Its up to the Highest Legal Authorities in the land to make the determination of charges and adjudicate.

    The debate is irrelevant. Multiple crimes were committed by every person who entered the capitol. You want to quibble about whether white nationalist/supremacists violently occupying the Capitol are domestic terrorists, talk to the FBI.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
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  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    How do you KNOW he didn't sit down and plan it? You have no more proof of that than I have proof he did

    We do have undeniable proof of one thing. It DID happen and Trump DID have a part in it. Whether he was a "proximate cause" is a matter for a court to decide. In the meantime LOCK HIM UP
     
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  20. Gentle- Giant

    Gentle- Giant Well-Known Member

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    In the future don't be surprised to see Trump reenactors pop up just like Civil War reenactors.
     
  21. Gentle- Giant

    Gentle- Giant Well-Known Member

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    We saw Trump laying the ground work before the election suggesting that he wouldn't accept the results unless he won.
    Back in my day there were many antigovernment protests but the leaders of the peace movement never boke into the Capital to kill people. That may have changed if we had any Republicans in the peace movement, but of course most of them were for the war as long as they didn't have to go. Not to say there weren't many Republicans who walked the walk. I really dislike Chicken-hawks like W. Bush Cheney and Bill O'Riely
     
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  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is all irrelevant gibberish -- I don't like Reagan/ Daddy Bush/ Cheney or O'riely either .. and certainly not Trump.

    That does not change the fact that
    1) no they did not break in to kill people - that is just false ..
    2) this was not terrorism unless we are living in totalitarian land -
    3) The Dems have lost their minds.
     
  23. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Time will tell...certainly we know a number of people died. We know thefts were made. Property destroyed. All of those, ranging from those who committed trespass on the Capitol grounds to those who committed the building break-in and worse committed crimes and should be indicted. Then...w'll see how it goes. If there was a plot to forcibly shut down the joint session connecting the nation's business in the Election Count, then the charge Seditious Conspiracy could be the charge.
     
  24. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    They had created a noose there ,didn't they?? That certainly implies intent.
    The Trumpkins have lost their minds. they have been radicalized. (but don't try to get off on psych reasons )
     
  25. Gentle- Giant

    Gentle- Giant Well-Known Member

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    I love Nancy. I hope she remains as speaker for at least another 8 years. She has instigated half of the impeachments in the history of the United Sates All she needs to create a record that no one will ever touch is to have Ivanka run and win in 20324. Instead of Killing Nancy the Republicans could always try to beat her democraticaly. Fortunately they are well on the way to third party status. Independents have blown past them and soon the Green party and Working Families party could pass them https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...blicans-gop-independents-ballot-a9366326.html
     

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