Should National Guard Troops In DC Be Issued Live Ammunition?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Grau, Jan 16, 2021.

  1. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you, Jazz,
    That's why I mentioned the tragic incident at Kent State where scared and poorly trained Ohio National Guard troops killed several fellow Americans.
     
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  2. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    So then it's okay for fellow Americans to kill LEOs? Using your argument, no LEO should ever have live ammunition.
     
  3. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It strikes me as hypocritical that on one hand Biden & Pelosi talk about unifying the country and "reaching out to ALL Americans" yet at the same time they're doing all that they can to torment Trump and prosecute rioters who were much less violent than the Antifa/BLM mobs who have burned, looted and destroyed numerous cities throughout the country for most of 2020.
    There's a difference between justice and spiteful vengeance that the Democrats can't seem to grasp.
     
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  4. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    So someone harming someone with a knife should be overlooked because someone else harmed somebody with a gun?
     
  5. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

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    Say it AGAIN, now that we've crossed into banana republic politics, the masses need to get the message loud and clear, so put Abram's on street corners and have Apaches buzzing overhead, along with armed, armored backed checkpoints at every entrance to DC. And for those who think the military won't use it's force against American citizens, first, read your history, second, make sure your will is updated.
     
  6. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Where have I even hinted that it's OK for fellow Americans to kill LEOs?

    Re:
    No, the difference is that LEOs work full time and are trained specifically to deal with American civilians.
    On the other hand, the National Guard is comprised of civilians who only train once a month. There are about 25,000 National Guard troops currently in DC who have little if any experience with crowd control and the likelihood of a deadly incident is far greater when less qualified individuals are issued live ammunition.
    I'm not saying that no LEOs or National Guard members should be issued live ammunition but simply that only the most experienced and best qualified individuals should have live ammunition.
     
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  7. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    My apologies if I misunderstood your post. It sounded like you were saying it's okay for the NG to go in unarmed against rioters who may be armed.

    OK. That's a fair point, but, what is the solution to protect the Capitol, Biden, Harris and others at the inauguration? Surely, we can't just sit on our thumbs and *hope* that nothing bad happens.
     
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  8. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Where did I say that harming someone with anything should go unpunished?
     
  9. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    You didn't. I reread this thread and I should have posted my comment to Jazz.

    Sorry for the mix-up.
     
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  10. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:
    No problem. I simply feel that the NG members should be equipped with more suitable tools for the job such as riot control gear and loaded pistols. The select fire M-4 carbines they are currently issued are too easily snatched from their hands at close quarters and the 5.56X45mm round that it fires over penetrates in a crowd.

    Re:
    I agree. There should be adequate security and because of recent events, "adequate" means lots of security.
     
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  11. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    What is the point of them if they don't have live ammunition?
     
  12. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for understanding.

    I can understand the need to minimize risk of weapons being commandeered by rioters. However, what happens when the NG is outmanned? For instance, I'm in IL (USA) and our Governor has requested 250 NG whereas a friend in MI said his Governor has requested 10,000 NG. I know it's hard to determine how many are needed but the riot at the Capitol proved that we needed a stronger presence there.

    I'm not claiming to have all the answers. I'm not sure what the answer is but I don't believe it's sending the NG in with empty weapons.
     
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  13. Turin

    Turin Well-Known Member

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    No, they should be given nerf balls.

    Of course they should have ammo.
     
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  14. signalmankenneth

    signalmankenneth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and fix bayonets too!

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    Why not?
    In Italy all police forces [and military units acting as military forces] are armed and with live ammunition.
    In UK they seem to think that a policeman can stop violent rioters using a stick ...
     
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  16. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    If you send any military force into the field to accomplish a mission in a 'theater' of operation where the possibility of danger is present, you must (MUST) arm that military force!

    A rifle without ammunition is nothing but a club... a handgun without ammunition is nothing but a stone.... And if a potential adversary has ammunition for his weapon and you don't, YOU'RE FUGGED! :frown:
     
  17. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, Grau, you are a divided country with a lethal democracy, limping along on both feet. The rest of the world is watching intently, hoping America shoots itself in the foot AND knee!
    Comment from a Russian official:

    Konstantin Kosachyov, the chair of the Russian upper house’s foreign affairs committee, said the stunning events in the US capital showed that Washington had no right to lecture other countries on democracy. “The losing side has more than enough grounds to accuse the winner of falsifications — it is clear that American democracy is limping on both feet,” Kosachyov said in a post on Facebook.
    “The celebration of democracy has ended. It has, unfortunately, hit rock bottom, and I say this without a hint of gloating."

    Read more at: https://www.vanguardngr.com/2021/01/us-democracy-limping-on-both-feet-―-senior-russian-lawmaker/

    Imagine, how many eyes will be on Washington on Wednesday as the "world police state" gets ready under heavy protection from its military to implement another set of corrupt leadership.
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:

    I'm afraid that I have to agree that America is divided and that the presidential election was corrupted but I hope that the shooting stops at America's foot. The extensive military presence currently in DC looks like a new dictator is being forced down America's throat whether Americans want him or not.
    Even though I don't like Trump and do not believe that the election results are legitimate, we're stuck with Biden-Harris for at least 4 years.
    This is the same professional politician who voted for the waging the Iraq war openly declared: "I am a Zionist" as he was groveling before AIPAC so I certainly don't expect anything good to come of the Israel-Palestine imbroglio.
    If the Democrats insist on impeaching Trump even while he is out of office, they will only be rubbing salt into the large open wound that exists in this country.
    Wish us luck.
     
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  19. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You mean to put down all the riots and protest and anarchy that is going on?
     
  20. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you, Grau, for your opinion. My feelings are similar.
    Here is an educational article my European friend sent me recently. I find it very worthwhile to read:

    After the USSR, the USA Collapses


    Washington has outrageously favoured a small camarilla of ultra-billionaires. Now it has to face its old demons, prepare for secession and civil war.

    Each of the two camps that are fighting in the United States, the Jacksonians and the Neopuritans, wants to end the other. The former speak of insurrection, while the latter want repression, but all are preparing for confrontation. So much so that two thirds of the citizens are preparing for Civil War.

    The Jacksonian point of view:

    The Jacksonians take their name from President Andrew Jackson who, before the Civil War, opposed the creation of the Federal Reserve (an independent central bank). They disappeared from political life for a century until one of them, Donald Trump, was elected to the White House. Above all, they oppose the incestuous links between private banks and the US central bank, the publisher of the dollar. Etc.


    The Neo-puritan point of view

    In contrast to the Jacksonians, the groups raging against the still-in-office president Donald Trump are just as sure of their rightful place. Like Lord Protector Oliver Cromwell, they claim a higher moral standard than the law; but unlike the English Republican, they do not use religious references. They are Calvinists without God.

    They intend to create a Nation for all, not with their opponents, but by excluding all those who do not think like them. That is why they welcome the decisions of Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat and Twitch to censor those who challenge the regularity of the election. They do not care if these multinationals arrogate to themselves a political power that contravenes the spirit of the First Amendment of the Constitution, since they share the same conception of Purity as they do: freedom of expression does not apply to heretics or “trumpists”.

    Read more here:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/01/thierry-meyssan/after-the-ussr-the-usa-collapses/
    -----
    As a Non-American I don't have the knowledge about the inner workings of their politics, but I'm sure you do and can make sense of this article... perhaps?
     
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  21. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    For riot control you don't need armed National Guardsman. You need a bunch of mounted police and water cannons.

    But mounted police and their horses are expensive and water cannons have a negative connotation due to their uses against Civil Rights Protesters.

    Yet those are what is needed.
     
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  22. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While I agree that mounted police and water cannon would be effective in riot control, no two riots are alike and neither would have been appropriate for regaining control of the Capitol building on Jan. 6.
    Another concern I have is the well being of the horses with the use of tear gas, flash-bangs and rioters using Mace and similar sprays
     
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  23. maxLiberal

    maxLiberal Banned

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    of course they should be outfitted as needed, their lives are in danger and we don't have wannabe Hitler encouraging evil now
     

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