Reparations I can live with...

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by edna kawabata, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Get reparations from the African tribes that sold ya'all into slavery in the first place.
     
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  2. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty confident that Esau wasn't sold into slavery.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  3. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    Wtf?! You waited months just to make one totally irrelevant comment about me...
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  4. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    No, I replied directly to Professor Peabody, who was replying to you. He said ".. who sold y'all into slavery". You weren't sold into slavery I'm assuming. I was again making the point that we shouldn't put everybody into groups and treat them as monoliths.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  5. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    That would be the goal posts, a level playing field. That is what the Asheville reparations was trying t accomplish....and Esau isn't black.
     
  6. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    You don't level any playing field by treating people of a particular "race" as a monolith. Judging people based on their race is racial prejudice. It is the basis of racism. You'll never defeat racism by pushing its basis.

    Nor am I white. And it isn't relevant. It actually even further makes my point for me in response to Professor Peabody. He was grouping people and mis-grouped Esau, which is something that happens quite frequently.

    We also all can be grouped into various groupings by people leading to very different prejudices of us, all of which are unfair.

    If you saw me you would first see my skin, and by my dark skin tone may presume I'm black. Then if I took off my sunglasses you'd see my eyes, and by the shape of my eyes may presume I'm asian.

    Do you form a prejudice towards me based on race? And if so, which one? Am I to be considered black, deserving of reparations, in need of help, and held to lower expectations; presumed to be uneducated and poor? That wouldn't be fair. Or am I to be considered asian, presumed to be a math nerd and held to a higher standard when applying to somewhere like Harvard? That also wouldn't be fair.

    And before you read this post, did you presume me to be white? Did that trigger a prejudice towards me in your mind? Was I thought to be privileged, wealthy, etc? That also wouldn't be fair.

    We need to be on guard AGAINST such prejudices. We shouldn't be pushing them. Just because somebody is black doesn't mean they aren't rich, privileged, highly educated, etc. The presumptions underlaying the logic of reparations, lower standards on college applications, another "help" or "equalization" for (it is neither) based on race are the same presumptions underlaying police pulling people over for "driving while black", or following around black people thinking they are probably shoplifters because black people can't afford to shop here, etc. These presumptions are wrong and unfair.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
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  7. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    My, I don't know who you think you are writing to, but you have rattled on about your ethnic heritage in the past and your allergy to defining a people by their ethnicity. A lot of people, African Americans, Native Americans, Koreans, Irish....are proud of their ethnicity. It is part of who they are but racists see only that, your "monolith". I love a variety of cultures. I don't deny their existence. What the problem is since 1865 blacks in the US have through laws and the larger social order have had their equal treatment crippled and have been left behind. Racists say it is their own fault, but one has to deny history and human nature to believe that or just be ignorant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  8. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Culture and race are not the same thing. To be "proud" of your race is stupid and counter-productive, be it "white pride", "black pride", or "asian pride".

    Monolith thinking is what underlays racial prejudice. Thinking you know anything about somebody by looking at their skin colour, other than their skin colour, is problematic. It is the basis of racism (and of "affirmative action") and we need to get beyond it.

    That's only true for some of them today. Others live very privileged lives. Again, don't treat them as a monolith. Let's not pretend that lowering standards so a rich trust fund black kid can get into Harvard is doing absolutely anything for an inner city black kid born into poverty, just because they are both black.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  9. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    My what rigid rhetoric you have. Of course culture and race are not the same, but in the US if we refer to the "white race" it means European Americans and referring to blacks it means African Americans unless we qualify those terms by saying Nigerian Americans, Polish American, etc.

    You say a culture whose progress has been crippled by the larger social order only has effected "some". Over 30% of black households earn less than $25k/yr. 93% of blacks are middle income and below. Your "privileged" class is not a true representation of black America and not part of the problem. Why are you fixated on the 7% and who said anything about lowering standards, but changing standards is what is needed to change social outcomes. The right is apposed to that.
     
  10. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    You don’t allow for the existence of black polish people who come to America and become Americans?

    European is not a race. To confuse being white with being of any particular culture is racist in and of itself. Nor does being black mean somebody has any ties whatsoever to Africa.

    What culture? Being black is not a culture. And painting black people in terms of group averages is not fair to individuals with black skin.

    Black people on average both suffer more poverty and commit more violent crime. That in itself does NOT justify any measures to help or hinder any individual who happens to have black skin.

    If one argues for “affirmative action”, helping people based on skin colour alone, because of racial group averages, they are also making the case for racial profiling such as “driving while black” stops or police taking extra precautions against black suspects. This prejudiced treatment is unfair regardless of intent.

    I am not fixated on any percent of any racial group. I do not think in terms of who is and who isn’t “a true representation of [insert race] America”. That’s the point.

    And I am not “the right”. That so many are so insistent on dividing everybody into “the left” and “the right” is another problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  11. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Again you demonstrate the inflexibility of your thinking. I will try to go slow. Again, of course race and culture are not the same, but in common usage in the US, when the white race is referred to it means European American culture. It doesn't mean Ukrainian American culture or Italian American culture. Got it? Likewise when referring to the black race, depending on context, means culturally African Americans.

    Denying African Americans have a distinct culture is either denial of reality, ignorance or denigrating the value and contributions of their culture.

    African Americans, just because they were members of that group, were systematically held back by the larger society, and you think are owed nothing for that crime because they shouldn't be treated as a group. How does that make sense? Pretend nothing happened?

    Pointing out and correcting an injustice does not encourage more injustice, no matter what the right believes.
     
  12. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    And again you push prejudice and different treatment based on skin colour. That is rigid thinking.

    Italy is in Europe. Italians can have black skin.

    It includes all immigrants from Africa with white skin? No it doesn’t.

    Nor is it true that affirmative action programs exclude people with black skin who have no family ties to Africa.

    It makes sense because two wrongs don’t make a right and because people are not monoliths. Are you owed something because somebody who looks like you was mistreated?

    Oppression of inner city black kids doesn’t justify special perks for privileged black kids.

    This I agree with. But engaging in injustice doesn’t correct injustice. And pushing the categorization and uniform treatment of people into monolithic groups based on skin colour doesn’t undo the pushing the categorization and uniform treatment of people into monolithic groups based on skin colour.

    Being racist towards people based on skin colour, to treat them favourably doesn’t in any way correct for being racist towards other people who look like them, to treat them disfavourably.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  13. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    The idea is fine but how they turn this into a workable, well-funded plan is another.
     
  14. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    I thought I went slow enough, but apparently the nuances of US dialect are not in your spectrum.
    We can agree privileged black kids don't justify "special perks" but there are comparatively few of them and that is a side issue that you seem enamored with. The main issue is the mean net worth of whites is $171k and that of blacks (African Americans, are you catching on?) is $17k. There is a ten fold difference and its because a sector of the populace were treated differently because of their skin color. That group should not ask for recourse because you think they should not be treated as a group, when the members of that group want to be treated as a group. I would say you are an outsider being dismissive of a group that lived with the social impact of the dominant society and wrong.
     
  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    It isn't that I'm too stupid to understand what you are saying. It is that I disagree completely with your group based approach, which I see as you treating people with prejudice based on the group you identify them with. I've stated this repeatedly and you don't seem to want to address it.

    It isn't a side issue and I'm not enamored with anyone. It is a demonstration of your sweeping all "black people", "white people", "asian people" etc into monolithic groups that you think there is a "a true representation of". When the truth is that people you are sweeping into these groups are individuals and all have their own unique circumstances.

    Not only are there plenty of privileged black people, but every individual underprivileged or oppressed black person differs from other individual underprivileged black people in scope and in extent, and "white people" (the group you identify as privileged) vary as individuals as well, some being very very privileged and others being very very underprivileged and oppressed, even more so than some of your "black people".

    By prejudging people based on skin colour or "culture" (which it isn't), you are doing all of these individuals a disservice.

    And as I noted above, the same logic that you may use for affirmative action (presuming people need it based on race alone) is the same logic used by racists to expect people based on race alone to be more dangerous or violent, more or less intelligent, etc. Just because Asians on average score higher than other races doesn't mean a particular Asian woman is brilliant. Just because Black people on average are poorer than other races, doesn't mean that black guy driving that expensive car must have stolen it so we better pull him over.

    Again, you are stuck on group averages and you are ignoring the individuals. Racial proxy is prejudice. If your concern is net worth then join me in calling for universal basic income and put cash into the hands of people who need it. Pretending that black equals poverty will not only screw that up, but with stigmatize black people further as the poor race, making it harder for individual black people to succeed and break that stereotype that you are insisting on keeping over their heads.

    No they don't. You don't speak for each of them. And groups should not have rights. Individuals should have rights.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
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  16. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Can you admit that a group because of their skin color have been treated prejudicially since Reconstruction in the US? If not that's a hard stop. You're an ideological goner and we're done. If so, what would justice be for a group that is still being actively discriminated against because of their skin color? Ignore it and forget it happened? Your colorless world doesn't exist in reality and you believe hate laws should not exist. Do you deny the opinions of all groups? Do the opinions of Native Americans, Mexican Americans, etc not matter because you deny their existence or is it just African Americans?
     
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  17. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    They are free to wish to be treated as a group all they want. they are not entitled to a penny of my money, as I have never been a slave owner. No person alive today in the US has been a slave, nor anyone they've ever known. I am not a racist. I do not owe anyone a penny for something that happened to their ancestors.
     
  18. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    How do you account for the 10 fold difference in mean net worth? I'm sure your answer is not racist, but shouldn't we work to level the playing field and good wishes are not adequate. It is not what happened to their ancestors. It is what happened to them and their families for the last 150 years.
     
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  19. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I want my lunch money back... ok... they didn;t take my lunch money but they did shakedown some undersized white kids .. so I want in a lunch money reparations.. and that has actually happened in this century.
     
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  20. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    if you can show I directly caused that, then you’d have an argument for taking my money to give to them. You can’t show that though, as it has nothing to do with me.

    The playing field is level. As evidenced by wealthy minorities. Poor life choices are nobody’s fault except for the person making the choice.

    Nothing to do with me. Nothing that happened in the past 150 has prevented any minority from being successful, as evidenced by successful minorities.
     
  21. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Your answer to my question seems to be, the African Americans community makes an unusually large amount of poor choices therefore they must have a (genetically?) deficient thought process and it's not my fault. Not racist at all.
     
  22. Esdraelon

    Esdraelon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Throwing more cash their way will do nothing more than what it already has accomplished. Have a look at places like Detroit and Baltimore. I won't argue with a racist but IMO, anyone who willingly votes in perpetuity for a party that pays them to stay on a modern Plantation and allows them to be denied a quality education, DESERVES whatever comes their way. Anyone who wants to attach a label to me is welcome to. It affects me NOT AT ALL.
     
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  23. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Groups based on race most definitely do NOT have singular opinions. To suggest that they do is simple and extreme racial prejudice. Each individual has their own opinion and experience, and you do them a disservice by ignoring them.

    To answer your question, yes, I do realize that individuals have been harmed, oppressed, and treated unfairly based on others insisting on treating them as my monolithic groups based on some irrelevant characteristic they share such as skin pigmentation, declaring these groups as lesser or as the enemy, or as weaker, or poorer, etc.

    Can you not see that is both the basis of what you deplore and what you endorse? Assuming you know somebody's opinion or experience just by looking at their skin is wrong. Valuing them based on it is even more wrong.

    I think think that it is you who is the "ideological goner". You have not addressed anything I wrote above and you stooped immediately to personal attacks. Is that "sow enough" for your brain?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  24. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    We should level the playing field yes. I noticed you completely ignored my call for doing so based on financial need instead of wealth averages of groupings you insist people identify with.
     
  25. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    The playing field is most certainly not level. We dont all start out with the same opportunity. Far from it.
     

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