Should the US share vaccine doses with Canada?

https://apnews.com/article/joe-bide...irus-vaccine-d31d3d04af887a72496872d86c03d572

An Ontario official asked President Biden for 1 million doses of Pfizer vaccine, because they did not receive what they were hoping for, from the European Pfizer factory. For those who aren't aware of it, the American Pfizer factory in Michigan is supplying our internal market, and all other countries are getting theirs from their factory in Germany which is undergoing an upgrade, resulting in delay of the international orders.

I do not know if President Biden has responded to this request. Whatever his decision is/was, I would like to ask people here, what do you think. Should we share vaccines with our brothers to the north?

Canada did not invest heavily on vaccine-makers like we did with Warp Speed. They've already acknowledged that their failure to act will get them to the back of the line. So, if they weren't so proactive and prudent, should we now rescue them?

An argument pro: a poor and messy country like Venezuela helped their neighbors to the south, Brazil, when the state of Amazonas and its capital Manaus ran out of oxygen and Covid-19 patients started dying suffocated. Venezuela sent five trucks full of oxygen bottles, although the government of Brazil is extremely against the one in Venezuela. So, it seems like humanitarian considerations went above politics. If sworn enemies like Venezuela helped Brazil, why can't we help our allies and friends, the Canadians?

An argument against: sorry but 1 million vaccine doses is 500,000 fewer Americans being timely vaccinated. At the rate of approximately 2% of deaths by Covid-19, this might result in up to 10,000 avoidable deaths of Americans. It is not our responsibility to fix Canada's problem, one might say.

There are more arguments for and against, but the above are sufficient to start the discussion. Vote please, and explain your opinion. Thanks.

 

Explaining my vote: I'm uncertain. As an American physician, my job and mission are to mitigate pain and suffering among my fellow Americans and save as many of their lives as I can. On the other hand, it pains me to think of not responding to a desperate call for help from our brothers. So, I don't know; I'm kind of torn about it. Maybe with more people voting and justifying their votes, I'll have a better picture and will figure it out.

 

Well, Biden owes Justin after his EO on the Keystone. Some leverage with Trudeau to keep the project dead should sit quite well with the environmental base. A few extra deaths here now vs. annihilation of the planet later....something to think about. The president’s job is to further the common good, not get hung up on little things affecting some individuals. He has to listen to climate scientists, too!

 

Yes. It’s the right thing to do.

 

What is Canada giving in return? Will the one million doses be free, will they cover the entire prorated cost?

BTW what is the cost of 1 dose of the vaccine?

 

Your job is to mitigate pain and suffering among ANY person in need of medical assistance, no? I'm certain you have had patients who are not citizens at some point in your medical career. Do you pass them over or do you treat them? I'm guessing they get the same level of care you would provide a fellow American.

With that said, I'm also on the fence about how to handle this leaning toward "yes" but the general rule of thumb is to put on one's own safety mask before assisting others. It's a tough question.

 

I authorize my doses to be sent there.

 

Yes, sure, I've treated many non-citizens, and yes, I strive to give them the same level of care. But this goes beyond that. Since our hospital has never reached capacity, treating them doesn't mean that Americans then die. Giving away 1 million doses of vaccine would most certainly result in some avoidable American deaths. That's different.

And then, it's not just the medical ethics part. It's the political oath part too. Our elected officials' oaths do not mention protecting the people of other countries. America is the one mentioned.

 

What I'm assuming is that once their deliveries resume they will give us back the 1 million doses.

Which is interesting: if our logistics don't improve we'd be able to do this without further affecting Americans as long as the 1 million doses are returned relatively soon, under the argument that we won't be able to get those 1 million doses into arms so fast anyway and they'd be sitting on shelves here anyway. This is less true now, though, because distribution and inoculation have actually improved; we are doing 900,000 a day and on Wednesday did 1.4 million. So presumably, giving away our doses and effectively delaying their administration by even a few days, would predictably result in the death of at least some Americans who would catch the disease before the vaccines could help them.

It would, in the same manner, indeed save the lives of some Canadians.

The cost of one dose varies with the vaccine. The cheapest one, Oxford/AstraZeneca, is if I recall correctly, something like $3 to $5 per dose. The most expensive one, the Moderna vaccine, again if I recall correctly, is something like $37. Effective bulk cost can be ascertained too. You'd have to go to the Warp Speed web site, get the list of how much money the US promised to pay for the pre-purchase order and divide by 100 million doses in the case of all others, and 300 million doses in the case of Oxford/AstraZeneca (we pre-ordered more of this one precisely because it is cheaper; which I think was a mistake; but I do acknowledge that it is Monday Morning Quarterbacking).

 

I understand your sarcasm. It's not that you're being altruistic. It's that you've always posted to ridicule the vaccines, which is a position that sorry, is completely illogical, no offense intended but it's just a fact. Now if I were to take your offer seriously, remember, you can always just decline your vaccine which I'm sure it's what you illogically plan to do. But that wouldn't change the parameters of the equation. Your declined doses, as things stand, would go to an American, and that could be an avoided death of an American, while if we send your vaccine doses to Canada, that American would be exposed.

 

Would you then vote, please? People are talking about it and it's appreciated, but they are not taking the poll's vote.

 

Hm, this is a strange argument, 557!

 

I don't really care where they go. I don't want a Canadian suffering what I might suffer in 20 years as a result of a not-long-term-tested vaccine any more or less than than I want that for an American. But if they want it, they can have it. Or give it to someone here. I authorize either.

 

20 years? mRNA vaccines degrade and leave the body in 8 hours. It's the cleanest technology ever, producing antibodies highly specific against the S protein and the S protein only. Safety record is spectacular except for immediate allergic reaction to other components of the formula, such as PEG, and those are 1 in 100,000. Good luck finding a problem 20 years down the road (and good luck finding an allergic reaction 20 years down the road; it occurs within 45 minutes and is perfectly treatable; nobody has died from one; just have an epi-pen nearby). If you choose to keep your irrational and imaginary fears against science, then be my guest. Do go to a lawyer and draw advance directives saying that you don't want any care in case you contract severe Covid-19, though. The system is overwhelmed enough as it is, so vaccine deniers should pass.

Interesting enough, the usual, non-emergency observation time the FDA usually requires is 6 months. It was abbreviated to 2 months for the sake of the emergency use authorization. But now that the vaccine is in use, and given the time for all the applications, the first people in the trials that completed the second dose have already reached at least the 5-month mark... still no issues. And it's been given now to millions worldwide, like 60 million (which dwarfs a phase 3 trial by several orders of magnitude), still no issues (other than the allergic reactions to non-mRNA components of the formula - ANY substance can cause allergic reactions; this is not sufficient to bash this vaccine).

But OH MY GOD NOOO!!!! IT'S SOOOOO DANGEROUS I'D RATHER GET THE VIRUS!!!!

Completely irrational.

I have little patience with anti-vaxxer arguments.

 

I said no based on the US’ extremely high infection/death rate. I’m all for helping our neighbors, but we need to get our house in order first.

 

I just find it ironic that every time the world is in trouble they know they can depend on Canada to pitch in and help, and this includes the USA, but when it’s our turn... crickets...

The USA also seem to forget that we share a long border and share family ties, which mean people are presently travelling to and from both country since having relative is one of the exception to the border closing.

 

Sweet. Maybe ill take it in 20 years.

 

I did not realize the poll didn’t accept my answer. Thank you!

 

That is, if you're still alive by then. Hopefully for your sake you won't catch a severe case of Covid-19.

 

That is one of the arguments I had in mind when I said "there are other arguments" but I didn't want to lay down everything otherwise there would be no point in having a discussion.

 

Yes! we should give them some of the Vaccine, as long as it is given to the most vulnerable of their Population and NOT! to the Rich and Powerful within their Ranks. If I see Justin Trudeau smiling on TV as he's getting his 1st Shot, which could have gone to an Old person in America waiting to get vaccinated, I say that's the last of what we give them until every American Citizen over 65 that wants the Vaccine gets it and is fully Vacinated.

 

Why? We give money, food, medications etc to other countries all the time to get them to do what we want or leave us alone. From an environmental standpoint doesn’t it make sense to sooth the sting of backing out of the Keystone with some vaccines so they don’t push the pipeline issue? We give war materiel to countries so they will sell us oil, why not give vaccines so we don’t get more oil we’ll just use to pollute the environment?

I’m just pointing out a justification for giving them vaccine that results in what the Biden administration sees as a net positive for the the global community.

In all seriousness I voted no. I think what we have needs to go to US citizens first.

 

Because there is still some organization and planning required for the vaccine roll out here, I don't see the problem with 1 million doses BEING SOLD to Canada.

Unfortunately, the Premier of Ontario is, basically, Trump lite. So the way he's asking is not going to help the cause.
“Our American friends, help us out,” Ford said. “You have a new president, no more excuses. Help us out.” Ford notes Ontario is a large trading partner to the U.S. “I can’t help but ask the president,” Ford said. “The least thing you can do ... give us a million vaccines. You have a hundred million down there. Give your great neighbor which stands shoulder to shoulder with you a million vaccines to get us over the hump. That’s what we would love to see from the president.”

 

Maybe then with some guarantees, such as, "we will give you 1 million doses now but the next 1 million doses of Pfizer shipment you get from Germany, will by contract that you will sign with Pfizer, be delivered to us instead, to pay us back so effectively we are lending you 1 million doses to help you over the hump, rather than giving them to you." I could live with that.

 

I found it weird because it's two such different issues, Covid and oil, but I guess you have a point.