Security Propaganda

What is your grievance? That the Trump lost the election. What is your remedy? To overthrow the will of the people.

No Thanks.

 

It matters not that they failed, they tried and they deserve to be punished as traitors and criminals.


Black Lives Matter never tried to violently take over the government. A pile of Trumpians did.

 

demonstrably correct. it's why you can't show me where it is written, or what laws are contained in it.

 

They failed. Order restored in a couple of hours. They still have not recovered in the other cities.

 

Is he still the head of our government? Are you aware that that was not the grievance expressed by the people at the protest? The primary grievance was election fraud, and the secondary grievance was media censorship. Have either of these two grievances been addressed to the satisfaction of the governed, or do you think this battle will re-ignite at the next election?

 

Natural law is that lions eat whatever they want. Except when a stronger animal, a larger group, or one with a gun says otherwise.

 

Not sure why anyone would defend a failed operation. Kind of like how there are those who cling to their Confederate flags.

 

I am not defending them. As far as I am concerned, they should be taken out and shot. I am referring to the democrats downplaying BLM riots while at the same time going ballistic over the Capitol riots.

The democrats act like our government was being threatened. If our government is threatened by a few hundred thugs, then we are in worse shape than I thought.

 

DC v Heller

 

How are you not here claiming what I have been saying all along? Of course the the grievance wasn’t that the Trump lost the election. It was that the election was stolen because of voter fraud. Voter fraud that is repeatedly alleged, but never proven. So then, what is the remedy? That the election be given to the Trump, even though such voter fraud is little more than a big pile gooey stinky poop.

I think that it is clear, the majority of Americans, the majority of humans are much happier now that the Trump no longer has any power. Many are gleeful that the Trump will be facing legal challenges because of its past activities for years to come.

 

Not only laughably wrong, but laughably wrong for thousands of years.

For someone who professes to know so much about law you should know better. The Founders and Framers certainly did, and so did the men (Locke, Cicero, et al) who influenced and guided them.

It is written in our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and as Fangbeer correctly pointed out, the Declaration of Independence, too. Supreme Court justices have mentioned how it figured into in their rulings.

THE U.S. SUPREME COURT and NATURAL LAW
http://www.nlnrac.org/american/u.s.-supreme-court

Your "argument" is a classic case of not being able to see the forest from the trees. The existence of our rights does not depend on Positive Law.

 

No, the remedy is revision of the election process to promote transparency and confidence.

This is what some people in congress were calling for prior to the protests. This is what the protestors were in support of.

And yet that happiness will be just as short lived as the next election cycle unless the legitimate grievances of the people are addressed. The people who raised those grievances are currently being slandered as terrorists, religious extremists, authoritarians, fascists, bigots, racists, nativists, even libertarians. Are the people in power concerning themselves with repairing a broken election system, or are they more concerned with hiding behind walls and locking up political opponents?

 

no idea how you think that supports your position? It is expressly against the law to take up arms against the government.

 

again, no such thing as natural law. You are describing a philosophical concept, not something in actual existence.

It is nowhere in our constitution. the DOI has no legal meaning in the US. And you are quoting DICTA, not the rulings. Which is meaningless.

It quite demonstrably does depend on positive law. It's why people don't have the same rights depending on the country you are in.

 

Only if you lose. But that's not the point. It's the right to secure yourself against tyranny that's protected by the constitution, and legal precedent. Read Scalia again if you're confused by this.

If they don't possess the threat of violence, then they can be suppressed. Thus, the threat of violence is protected. Just like I said originally.

Under the US constitution, the voices and opinions of political opposition are not allowed to be suppressed. Not by censorship in the media, or by walls around the Capitol. They can be addressed. They can be negotiated with. They can be argued with rationally.

 

And yet, this is precisely what Rump's own people in the cabinet have alleged;

Trump’s own officials say 2020 was America’s most secure election in history

So what evidence will you accept?

 

I think we mostly agree that it shouldn't be that way; the place where we disagree is that there may be conditions that make it necessary to do so. I find it upsetting that these people's grievances were aired, were discussed and were heard in courts and that was not enough so they turned to violence. I will look forward to the day when these security measures are no longer necessary. I don't think we are there yet.

My response to which administration placed it there was not to your point. It a response to a "this is what Democrats do" post.

 

Were Trump's own officials on the steps of the Capitol? If not, I don't think it's their concerns we need to address.

 

That is a pathetic answer.

What more proof do you need that there was NO ELECTION fraud? Because at this point, it really seems that the only remedy is to give the presidency back to the Rump, and that is not going to happen. Do you understand that?

 

Traitors deserve death. Criminals, jail time commensurate with their offense. Your expression "pile of Trumpians" is rather dehumanizing, innit? I realize it's pointless to try to rationally discuss this with someone who is comfortable dehumanizing those they see as enemies but it really gets tiresome hearing this same nonsense day after day.
I don't give a damn and Burn, Loot, and Murder OR Antifa because both of those groups are WAAY too gutless to come anywhere near the part of the country I reside in. They've proven themselves to be cowards and opportunists.
On 1/6/21 in DC, there were at least a couple of hundred THOUSAND Trump supporters. I haven't bothered to dig enough to know the precise number of those who entered the restricted area of the Capitol. From what I've seen it was a couple of hundred, maximum. Some of them behaved like idiots and rednecks and if they are on camera destroying property then they should be charged with rioting, looting, mayhem, whatever is appropriate but this nonsense about trying to "violently take over the government" is, frankly, a childish accusation. I don't care that you or others feel justified to demand punishments that are completely draconian. I've come to expect that kind of "boot to the head" approach from many on the Left. What I DO care about is the casual way so many on the Left are stoking hate and discord.
A little perspective for others here who might actually want to discuss what happened rather than put unarmed protesters against a wall or something similar:
There was significant property damage though I don't recall any fires or anyone intentionally trashing what is probably VERY expensive artwork hanging in the rooms this "pile of Trumpians" were in. IIRC, none of the protesters threatened anyone with actual weapons like oh, GUNS or KNIVES. NOT ONE. The only firearm that was discharged is the one a Capitol rent-a-cop used to kill a 14-year Air Force veteran. Her crime? She was with a group of protesters who were pushing their way into the Capitol building. They shouldn't have done that but it's hardly a crime worthy of a death sentence and that PUNK that shot her should pay a serious price for his lack of professionalism.
While you are raging against these dangerous citizens who were trying to "overthrow the U.S. government" perhaps you should pause and remember that NONE of these protesters had guns or knives nor did they cause any serious injuries among the security staff there.

We were treated to lies about how a Capitol cop was beaten with a fire extinguisher and it killed him. His family denied that was the cause of his demise. So the truth is, neither you nor I actually know what happened to him and since we don't what happened we can't exactly proclaim who was responsible for it, other than to guess.
Three Trump supporters died from medical emergencies that were not specified. That's a total of FIVE casualties, only two of which might have died as a result of a physical altercation.
Since that day I have heard this garbage about "insurrection", "assault on Democracy", "attacks against the Capitol" and it's patently RIDICULOUS.
Was it a wise move to join a mob and damage our Capitol? Hell no! They should have behaved like adults but my guess is they've been observing REAL anarchy and burning and violence all summer and figured "sauce for the goose", as they say.

Here's the bottom line... using media to push a lying narrative that claims these people somehow were a serious threat to the U.S. GOVERNMENT is silly, petty, petulant, and insidious. If it continues and other citizens are convinced these idiots are a real threat, we have no idea what could come from that. Do you grasp that? Do you CARE that such slanders could lead other unstable "Trumpian" haters to decide to take revenge when he isn't convicted?
Neighbor, you sound like you'd be completely okay with seeing these protesters imprisoned for a very long time. As in, YEARS. Add to that the fact that as felons they'd probably lose the vote and the right to be armed for self-defense. In short, you'd see their lives and futures DESTROYED for protesting what they viewed as a stolen election. Nice...

 

Does Pelosi's office mean more to you than everyday working Americans? Just asking before I ask my follow up question about riots and burning down businesses and government property and attacking officers.

Just want to make sure you aren't in any way biased.

 

From the joint statement prior to the protest:

 

I am quite certain that this voter fraud you speak of is mostly the result of a lunatic who was soundly beaten in a fair election, unable, or unwilling to accept the will of the majority of the people. Certainly the core will remain as it always has, but the moderates, those in the middle of the road have been waking up the duplicitous nature of the Republican Party.

 

I'm glad you asked. Perhaps if a court/judge had evaluated the evidence that was made public and his decision was EXPLAINED to the nation, that might help. I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue with a brick wall but the truth is that there were multiple issues with ballots whose provenance was NOT established. Thousands of ballots. In PA alone there were 200K+ votes in excess of the number of REGISTERED VOTERS. Do you think that might be worth examining? Similar issues were found in every one of the battleground states. I every one of them, the counting was interrupted - that was UNPRECEDENTED in our history. In every one of them, Trump was comfortably in the lead when the count was interrupted and magically, a few hours later, Biden is comfortably ahead by numbers of votes that could not physically have been processed in that space of time. THAT is what WE have seen. The fact that you don't care that the election was stolen says much more about your integrity and honor than it does ours. The TRULY disgusting thing is the behavior of you people for 4 years, then you steal an election and tell us to get over it.
Well, Biden is in the big chair, at least until he can't be trusted not to grope someone or begin talking to CornPop. At that point, HALLELUJAH, we get our first woman of culluh as president. At the rate this Democrat congress is spinning, Harris may be lucky not to need 25K troops to protect her "virtue". Sheesh, what a damned circus.

I'm actually looking forward to Pelosi and Schumer's next attack after Trump is acquitted AGAIN and they realize he seems on track to run in 2024.

 

This is not an either or question. Violence is not an answer. By the way I believe Mike Pense's name was mentioned so I also don't feel it is a Democrat/Republican thing.
Please don't go the route that if someone feels one is OK than the other is OK.
I will stand with the protesters who didn't riot, loot, burn, destroy government property or kill.