California Bill Would Give $1,000 Fines to Retailers With Separate 'Girls' and 'Boys' Toy Sections

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by chris155au, Feb 26, 2021.

  1. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My bad; I should have pegged you as a Laurel & Hardy devotee.
     
    chris155au likes this.
  2. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I understand that the word, "propaganda," can be used to apply in the way you are employing it; in general practice, which determines the inferences most of those, with whom you are speaking, will take to be your meaning, however, propaganda is thought to have a negative twist to it. That is, you are using the term as might a social scientist, but not in the contextual way that, when they would do it, it would be clear as to their intended meaning.

    For example, in African countries where AIDS had been the most serious problem, their governments' attempts to encourage safer-sex practices like condom use was, technically, propaganda. Yet, if someone here says, "the condom propaganda," it will be understood to mean that the speaker does not believe the HYPE. The same would apply to a campaign against wife-abuse, in a society in which that was seen as a rampant problem. Again, while any encouragement to not beat your wife, as though she were your mule, would be, "propaganda," of the campaign, it would typically only be referred to in that way, amongst the population being subjected to it, by those who were opposed to the propaganda's aims.

    As I don't believe your purpose in using the word is to be misunderstood, I'm wondering what overall reason, from your argument's perspective, you have for emphasizing this word.

    I'd also like to point out what I see as a misuse, in your unspecified usage of the term. Because media proliferation, & reach, are at historically unprecedented levels, we are under a continual barrage of propaganda, from not just political speeches & government statements, but in news coverage, in entertainment programs, and in the contents of all of our inboxes; it is inescapable. But for one to make a habit of referring to all of these different sources, with all of their diverse & frequently conflicting interests, as merely propaganda, would seem to not have any point. You did, at least once, make the specification of, "LIBERAL Propaganda." This is very different from, say, government propaganda, as might be uniformly-controlled, in China, Russia, or North Korea, for example. Not that there isn't government propaganda in all countries, but this official propaganda-- as, currently, that we should wear masks in public, socially-distance, frequently wash our hands, and get vaccinated once it becomes available for us-- is not the same as the propaganda that may come from any given politician; that is, the "government," does not speak with one voice.

    Likewise is the case, though you may not realize it, amongst liberals. There is not ONE AGENDA, to which we are all, secretly, agreed. There are certainly some general ideas, but much variation in the ways, & to the degrees, which liberals conceptualize the path, as well as the ultimate destination. I believe it was you who noted the unfortunate phenomenon of painting all of the left with a broad brush, based on the actions of the far left. But your use of the word, "propaganda," for all attempts at societal persuasion, seems to only all the more convolute the players, interests, goals, & forces involved.

    Perhaps this began with you simply making a point of definition, and has unintentionally surged to a place of dominance in the discussion, as is wont to occur in these forums, I know from personal experience. But if, instead, this understanding is central to the perspective you wish to present-- or propagandize, that is--
    without a thorough disambiguation of your assessment of the current state of play, you would only seem to be stoking of the passions of, "culture war," while leaving the meaning of that term to the wide-ranging personal interpretations which tend to minimize the benefit of any such attempted discussion.
     
  3. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,499
    Likes Received:
    4,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We are in a culture war and propaganda is being used by both sides. Both sides present issues out of context, distorted quotes which are outright lies and both sides believe they have the moral high ground. It isn't the same thing as educating a population on safe sex. What makes it even more difficult for me, since I lean right, is that the media has chosen sides and the people we should be able to trust are spreading the propaganda of the left. Here's a test suggestion for you, pick any social issue contested today and google a question about it, see how many right leaning articles you find. We have to listen to both sides and try to recognize when our own side is feeding us bs just like we do when we recognize it from the other side.
     
    Collateral Damage likes this.
  4. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Let me, first, thank you for somewhat clarifying your position. Please don't misinterpret as a sign that I am not interested in, or open to, a dialog on this issue, if I note that the definition for propaganda which I was fleshing out, in order to get your clarification, was based on the one you claimed to be using--
    -- which would include the examples I gave. I am happy to more-narrow the term's use, here, to avoid misinterpretation, as was the point of my post.

    To initiate that process, though, we must begin with the Covid-19 issue. You claim, above, that proper (or the best available) health education does not fall within the confines of your usage of the term, "propaganda." Yet, as you are fully aware, our government's role in disseminating information on this health crisis, if you don't object to that description, has been an ongoing flashpoint in our culture war (which I acknowledge, has been taking place). Since you also indicate that truth should be of primary import, in your statement--
    -- there is no excuse for us not going on the record, that the current government guidance on Covid (even if there are gaps in scientific understanding of all that is entailed in our battle against this virus) falls under the category of credible health directives (akin to the condom advice I previously cited), & not propaganda. Do you agree?


    (There was another direction in which I wanted to go, as well, but now I'm thinking, with a topic so laden with the potential for confusion, I shouldn't get too far out in front of our conversation.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  5. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,499
    Likes Received:
    4,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I do not believe that the current guidelines on Covid-19 are propaganda free. In fact, I think this crisis has been terribly misused very effectively for political purpose.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  6. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why did you stop there? Did you wish to share your perspective, or just make cryptic allusions? Since we are discussing, specifically, your view of propaganda, does it not seem that your statement about the Covid guidelines, "not (being) propaganda-free," begs for an enumeration OF what you see as propaganda, versus what you will concede is simply a valid attempt of government to protect its population?

    And the statement, "this crisis has been terribly misused very effectively for political purpose," you'd like to just leave hanging, ominously, yet at the same time utterly devoid of detail? That may pass for an opinion, but it is certainly a poorly-explained one. For starters, what political purpose(s) are you talking about? Then, a little of the reason you see this as a terrible misuse of the crisis, to my mind, would be very much in order.
     
  7. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,499
    Likes Received:
    4,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Getting Trump out of office, that political purpose.
     
  8. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And you do not believe Trump did that himself, by so neglecting vital aspects of the pandemic; such as even acting as if it was something for serious concern? I don't deny he did some beneficial things; but this is our President! He doesn't get high-fives for even making a minimal effort. Part of his job meant his not suggesting this was little more than a hoax, something blown WAY out of proportion. It is much better that our officials are over-prepared, in these circumstances, than under-concerned. The President's job was to do whatever he could to lessen the overall impact of the crisis. He did NOT model, or even make himself an advocate for, the basic social behaviors which would do this.

    Trump minimized attempting to limit infections & deaths, in favor of sparing economic activity. How advantageous it was to keep open businesses which functioned as vectors of infection, is an open question, longer-term. I know this was a decision of each state, but his clear preference carried a lot of weight. Trump's unwillingness to support financial aid to the cash-strapped states, was also a factor.

    I've even left out Trump's decision to pass on the WHO Covid Tests in favor of test kits to be developed in America, which was botched. He failed to plan for our government stockpiling the necessary supplies, including masks enough even for hospital employees. We were even SELLING these supplies to other countries, just ahead of Covid's being detected hitting us here! Do you not remember all those shortages of masks, and tests? Then, caught behind, Trump refused to employ the Defense Production Act to ramp up production of masks and personal protection equipment.

    Trump did not support the federal government's working with states, to help them with the logistics of an immunization roll-out, on a scale which most state governments would have a dearth of personnel with the comparable experience to have the ability to handle on their own.

    You may have arguments on the pro side, for each of the glaring flaws I named. But that brings me to my last point: voters obviously preferred the type of pandemic response laid out by Biden, to what they'd seen from Trump. And, thus far, Biden's Administration has over-performed in respect to the goals which he'd listed prior to the election. So how did he & Democrats (I assume), "terribly misuse," the crisis, with propaganda, to unseat Trump, as opposed to, by promoting their own view of the course we should take-- which politicians should be obliged to do-- not just beat him?

    With such an opportunity to lead the nation at a time of crisis, a golden opportunity to rally support & persuade people to NOT want to make any drastic changes, the person who could most obviously said to have terribly misused the crisis, was none other than Donald Trump, himself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You actually don't know where the ROFL option is?
     
  10. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My "WTF" post was directed to @Maquiscat, so why would you think that you offended me?
     
  11. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There's always something about a WTF, that speaks of annoyance, aggravation, or something along those lines. There was nothing in the post to which you were replying which could have reasonably elicited that pissed-off sounding response, unless it was that you had not appreciated my post, which Maquiscat's commenting favorably on could have then bothered you about, further. In fact, just to give you a straight, honest answer, as is my habit, while I would be glad to hear that you'd not taken my joke the wrong way, it seems to me that, if that were the case, the typical way to pass that along would be to say something like, "No worries, it didn't upset me," not to come back with your reassurance(?) in the form of a, touchy-sounding, challenge: my WTF post was directed to someone else, "so why would you think that you offended me?" It's kind of like Joe Pesci's mobster character, asking, "What's so funny; are you laughin' at me? You think I'm funny?"

    This was later compounded by my noticing that you also inquired about Cosmo's reply-- "Hey Abbott!"-- to that same post of mine,which you didn't understand. That made it obvious that you were not familiar with the Who's On First? routine which, while surprising, is nothing to be embarassed or defensive about, but it certainly would greatly increase the chances that my intended parody would come across, to you, as disrespectful.

    Hey, you asked. I hope you've had the opportunity, in the interim, to hear this comedy gem-- it's a classic. And I hope there are no hard feelings. Wishing you the best,
    DEFinning
     
    chris155au likes this.
  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No, I just didn't have a clue what he was talking about.
     
  13. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,915
    Likes Received:
    2,152
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There is none, which is why I said there should be. In this case I am talking similar to the Like option, not an emoji
     
  14. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    While I am, like you, against judging a book by its cover, I think you miss the point of those with the opposing view, on, "gendered," clothing. What the actual clothing is, at any given time, is kind of beside the point. What is important, for those who put import on this, is the temporal SYMBOLISM.

    For example, when long hair is considered, "feminine," & short hair, "masculine," then most people in that culture, at that time, will get some degree of a, "girly," vibe from guys who grow their hair long, and will attribute boyish characteristics to women who cut their hair short (and people will don these hairstyles, often times, with the intention of sending those, "signals"). This does not preclude those very same people, a decade later, finding short haircuts on women, and long hair on men, to just ooze the corresponding sexuality.

    It could be called group-think, or herd mentality, or societal-spanning peer-pressure, which intensifies it to the brainwash level. But your argument does not really refute it. To say that Persian men at such-n-such time, wore, "heels,"-- and woe to the man who could not afford a pair!-- does not counter the fact that, in that time & place, it may have been part of the male stereotype. This certainly does not mean, had that Persian found himself walking the streets of Europe, he wouldn't have received very strange looks-- for more than just his skin color! And as for the man who cares to stroll down the streets of modern-day Iran in a pair of pumps, even inscribing the heels with, "Muhammed loves you," or, "Made this way, by Allah," is unlikely to save him from stoning.

    So it is really about making a statement about the thing that, in the end, matters most to humans, in general: I think the same way you do (in this case, about gender roles); I am LIKE you.



    P.S.-- Just curious: is your, "name," meant to be pronounced with an initial short, or long, a-sound?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
  15. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,915
    Likes Received:
    2,152
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male


    I don't disagree with any of this. My point had been to note that there really is no such things as gender roles or expectations or the like as an objective reality, as some posters want to try to insist. It is all social construction, and as such we can consciously choose to balk and change them and it doesn't mean that we are trying to be something different from our sex or gender. Then, in relation to the topic of toys, I have always like the one, story I'll say instead of joke, that I heard a few years back. Two fathers are sitting together watching their boys play and one notices the other's boy playing with a baby doll. The first father asks the other, "Why are you letting him play with that? Don't you think that will teach him wrong things?" To which the other father replies, "Such as what? How to be a good father when his babies are born?"

    Short as in the French word for the historical rebel group and more recently, the rebel group in the TNG era Star Trek fictional universe.
     
    DEFinning likes this.
  16. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That is how I, initially, pronounced it in my mind, though I was unfamiliar w/ the Next Gen, Star Trek connection, & unaware of the rebel group (of which, you now have made me curious enough to research). But, realizing that some posters are more tongue-in-cheek with their names, it occurred to me that your spelling, with a long a-sound, at its beginning, could be an approximation of the phrase, "make a scat," i.e., to defecate or-- if you'll pardon the unrefined sound of the expression-- take a dump. I wonder if I'm the first to realize this, or if there might not be others who think that is the intended pun (it turns out) of your name.

    Thanks for the clarification on your argument. Yours is a valid point (w/ which I agree), albeit one that I doubt will change the minds of many with an opposing view.
     
  17. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,915
    Likes Received:
    2,152
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You are indeed the first to make that connection, even before me. Such a thing never occurred to me. I am/was a member of Maquis Forces International (MFI), a Star Trek Fan organization. We were the first to be internet based back before the turn of the century, while the others were all still postal based, with a few starting to venture into the internet. We also started the first online academy. And we were unique in that we left more power down at the chapter level. Like many Trekkers, I have a persona, and he is a Caitian, a feline humanoid race. Thus my moniker of MaquisCat.
     
  18. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10,535
    Likes Received:
    8,149
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Off topic, but interesting break down of your moniker. I've always read it (in my head) as Ma (my) quis (curious) cat (cat). Cat owners out themselves, lol.
     
    DEFinning and Maquiscat like this.
  19. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    3,043
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They already do, by dictating the minimum wage an employer is required to pay.
     
  20. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,751
    Likes Received:
    14,562
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is hyperbole. I do agree that the minimum wage provides an excuse for businesses to underpay employees. But at the same time the number of people on minimum wage is quite small. The best approach would be to end the minimum wage and let the marketplace do what it does better than government. An alternative would be to leave it alone. In time almost nobody will be that badly paid and it will stop being a political issue.
     
  21. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,499
    Likes Received:
    4,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Biden is still basking in the glory of what Trump set up. The only reason anyone would give Biden credit for where we stand today would be because they only listen to DNC talking points.
     
  22. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2020
    Messages:
    15,971
    Likes Received:
    7,607
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I didn't post that in this thread, did I? If so, I had been terribly off-topic. But I guess that's how discussions, & individual conversations w/in them, sometimes go. Speaking of which, you are top of my list of replies, for your post in my, also currently meandering, thread on the Johns-Hopkins data analysis, suggesting that the more restrictive approach, overall, of Blue States, trumped the generally less-strict rules of the Red states.
     

Share This Page