Ulysses S. Grant

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Statistikhengst, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. Statistikhengst

    Statistikhengst Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2015
    Messages:
    16,793
    Likes Received:
    19,344
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Now, THIS is the kind of input I like to see on threads like this.

    Thanks for your added info, it was helpful.

    Sometimes, it causes me to be conflicted, as I am indeed a Jew and Grant did at least one thing that is 100% purely anti-semitic, and yet my gut tells me he did it out of ignorance, not out of hate. One can see the goodness or even the greatness in someone else even when part of the person in question is.... problematic.
     
  2. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    He destroyed more than the cities, but you're right "total war."
    The first modern general, as Liddell Hart had it in 1930.
    It may be worth mentioning Sherman's men were ordered to leave the civilian population alone even though they were to destroy homes, food, and productive assets.
    Sherman was studied by Patton and Guderian for his strategy and tactics. He mastered the indirect attack and setting multiple objectives.
     
    Statistikhengst likes this.
  3. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,310
    Likes Received:
    6,668
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The deaths of southern civilians was actually pretty rare during Shermans campaigns.
     
    Statistikhengst likes this.
  4. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,131
    Likes Received:
    30,615
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yep, he wasn't the "total war" guy that he's been painted as. He was mostly targeting industrial production. He punished his troops for attacking civilians.
     
    Statistikhengst and Dayton3 like this.
  5. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Who was a "total war" General?
     
  6. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,131
    Likes Received:
    30,615
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Jackson advocated for it, but he never had the opportunity to carry it out.
     
    Statistikhengst likes this.
  7. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Today the virtually unknown Army General who established current tactics and strategy is the dead William E. DePuy. He commanded the unit I served in though he had left ahead of my getting to Germany. Among the Army he is very famous.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I have a book on all of the civil war Generals and shall check into that myself.
     
  9. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Interesting. My uncle was a Maj. Gen. USA and and was involved in efforts to modernize the Army in the early 1960s (retired in 1965). He supported efforts to rebuild the Army after Vietnam, a war he felt was unnecessary based on having a key position in the JFK and LBJ Administrations. (If I told you much more, you could figure out who I am.)

    I'm quite certain he knew General DePuy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
    Statistikhengst likes this.
  10. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,310
    Likes Received:
    6,668
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Was that the General DePuy who was partially responsible for the " Air/Land Battle" concept which was intended to help NATO defeat the Soviets in Western Europe by using deep strikes to gain strategic depth?
     
  11. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    General DePuy served in Vietnam and later was the first head of TRADOC. Opinions on Vietnam evolved during the war.
     
  12. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes it is.
     
    Dayton3 likes this.
  13. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, DePuy is the guy.
     
    Dayton3 likes this.
  14. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My uncle was opposed to us getting into an Asian land war in Vietnam while JFK was President. He felt we should focus on our alliances with other Asian countries.

    I had several conversations with a Col. Pennington--a long-time friend of my father-in-law test pilot, USAF Colonel--who was a liaison to Ho Chi Minh during WW2 and was also opposed to deepening our involvement in Vietnam. Pennington said Ho was a communist, but he would be a fierce opponent of the Chinese. Ho could be a strategic partner in the region, he thought.

    I worked for Northrop Corp in the late 1960s and they were producing tv-guided bombs to knock out bridges in Vietnam. We could put tons of high explosives within fifteen feet of the target. There were applications far beyond taking out bridges.

    I was working with computers for Northrop. Computers were getting faster and cheaper. Computer-guided weapons were inevitable.
     
  15. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    People today forget or perhaps do not realize that when JFK was president, our media put next to no effort in discussing Vietnam.
    Even when I got home from the Army at the beginning of Feb 64, you just did not catch the media doing much reporting on Vietnam in any fashion. A comparison to now is how our media puts little information out on Myanmar.

    When FDR was president and Truman was his VP, plans were made then to assist the South Vietnamese to be free of communism. FDR died and Truman assumed command and helped the people of South Vietnam.

    Those living in the Los Angeles area should go visit the Nixon Library where they can read up on this event where I read articles explaining what I just did moments ago. I recall progress being made as you describe.
     
    Dayton3 likes this.
  16. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I was in university in 1964 and Vietnam wasn't much if an issue.
    People were more concerned about civil rights and changing social norms.
    I think the mistake may have been reinstalling France after WW2.
    Not sure what you're saying about the Nixon Library.
     
  17. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I can still visualize the article in a glass case in the Nixon Museum. It was how Truman helped South Vietnam and why he did.
    Here is a site one can examine. Also those that doubt my story here can submit questions to the currently closed library to get up to date comments from them.
    https://museum.archives.gov/remembering-vietnam
     
  18. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,501
    Likes Received:
    8,671
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You seem to be confused again Robert.

    'South Vietnam' didn't come into existence until 1954/55. If I have my dates right FDR died in early 1945 and Truman left office in January 1953. That would make it a wee bit tricky for either of them to help an entity that didn't come into existence until they stopped being President.

    In fact, when FDR died the whole of Vietnam was still under Japanese control and the Communists were working with the American OSS. Hmmmmm. It really isn't hard to check these things you know.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  19. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am not confused. Those reading posts here might not recognize Vietnam were I to call it by former names.
    Yes FDR did die in 1945 but as I reported he knew all about Indochina and had discussed plans to help those living in the South of what is now Vietnam.
    Wait, you think nothing existed in what we call Vietnam and are kind of upset i speak of them ahead of being Vietnam.
    Wait, you think there is no such article at the Nixon Museum. But I assure you there is such an article. I read it 20 years ago.
     
    Dayton3 likes this.
  20. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Of course, we'll never know what FDR would have done had he lived, but Truman brought the French back to Southeast Asia and created a dynamic where the communists were the effective opposition.

    I might add here that Col. Pennington, the man I spoke of earlier, was convinced we were dealing with a committed communist in Ho. If we were going to have a noncommunist outcome in Vietnam, Pennington thought we would have had to give the Vietnamese political and economic control at the village level, something we could not and did not do before and after France leaving Vietnam.

    Col. Anthony Herbert's in his book, Soldier, outlined how he ran into trouble from higher-ups for turning economic control over to the Vietnamese people in his region. Herbert is best known for his reports on atrocities, not for his views on economics and politics. Herbert claimed he armed villagers who he said used the weapons to keep the communists at bay. I would have asked Pennington about Herbert's views if I had had a chance.

    Could we have defeated the communists by booting out absentee landlords and giving the Vietnamese control over villages? Over to you on that point.
     
  21. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    OK, as a former E-4 who happened to clerk for the CO at the Bt. HQ level, along with more study, to win in Vietnam would only happen if our side had gone into a full scale war in the North areas. We waged war as if if by winning the South, which we did would stop the communists. This fatal error made the war last a lot longer.

    Imagine had Patton pulled up in France and refused to wage an all out war on Germany in Germany. We might still wonder what he was thinking.

    A good current study is the war against the Taliban that Biden says he is leaving. We will never defeat the Taliban by retreating.
     
    Jack Hays likes this.
  22. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    19,292
    Likes Received:
    7,606
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    @Robert
    et al


    Yankees made war on civilians !
    :rant:

    Lacking napalm, Yankees used starvation & famine




    BTW
    Vietnam started in 1919 at the
    Treaty of Paris where a young Ho Chi Minh
    asked for Vietnamese self determination
    opposed by France.
    Fought French, then Japanese occupation
    then DeGaulle told his allies if they
    did not support French Vietnam
    he would join the Soviet bloc.
    and Viola, it became an :flagus: war


    El Moi :oldman:
    Defender of Truthiness





    Canada-3.png

     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  23. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    LMAO
     
  24. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If Col. Herbert is correct, we didn't need to go "all out" on the North.
    Is the situation analogous? I don't think so.
    I don't think leaving is the right approach.
     
  25. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    First we had the navy. We had the Air Force. We had the heavy munitions. We should have knocked out Ho Chi Minh easily. Johnson screwed up by picking targets he liked. He was not a good leader.
     
    Dayton3 likes this.

Share This Page