Evolution is a joke pt. XV

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by DBM aka FDS, Mar 20, 2021.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) you don't know that
    2) there are many examples of such mutations - even if the one posted is a little hyperbolic
    3) it only takes one life cycle for a life form to evolve - .. as soon as a mutation occurs - that is passed onto offspring - evolution has occurred.
     
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  2. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And we are proving mutations at this very time with Covid.
     
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  3. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    It is a scientific theory because it has a mountain of evidence and its predictions have been confirmed numerous times.

    Don't take my word for it. The evidence for evolution is available to you from a simple google search. The internet is literally chalk full of fossil, genetic, and morphological evidence for evolution.

    Faith is when you knowingly believe something with little evidence. Explain how scientists have this approach to evolution.
     
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  4. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    "When the new species came to form - who did it have sex with to create more species of that kind?"

    Speciation in animals usually occurs at the population level. Allopatric speciation is speciation that happens when two populations of the same species become isolated from each other due to geographic changes. Speciation of the isolated population occurs gradually.

    Closely related species can sometimes produce viable offspring - this is not uncommon.


    https://revistapesquisa.fapesp.br/en/when-hybrids-are-fertile-3/

    A mechanism for the formation of new species that has been gaining recognition among researchers is the possibility of plant and animal species that are genetically similar to one other crossing naturally and generating fertile hybrids.

    Previously, this idea was not widely accepted, because, in general, different species have different numbers of chromosomes, the structures within cells that contain genes. This difference can prevent the normal development of the embryo, as each chromosome that came from the male parent must be aligned with an equivalent chromosome from the female parent when the fertilized cell divides for the first time. Without this proper alignment, the cell usually cannot divide and, thus, dies. However, there are exceptions, and such exceptions appear to be less rare than was previously thought. The crossing between plants – or animals – of closely related species can produce offspring that, although of hybrid origin, are fertile, even though some chromosomes do not encounter their respective partner in the initial phases of cell division. With sufficient time and favorable environmental conditions, such hybridization events can generate species that are different from both of those from which they originated.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Species form by gradual genetic change over time.

    There has been enough genetic change so that lions and tigers can have offspring, but those offspring can't breed with anything. Lions and tigers came from a common life form that gradually divided and small genetic changes added up to the point where breeding isn't successful. So, they are different species.

    Your cat thing has to do with our recent powers of artificially modifying genes. That has NOTHING to do with evolution.

    Your ideas of what proof and faith are just doesn't happen to apply to science in any way AT ALL.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very true - much faster mutation than humans. I would use the ability of bacterial to mutate to clean up hydrocarbon contaminated soil and groundwater .. "bioremediation"
     
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  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. There absolutely is a theory of evolution and it is a foundation of ALL modern biology.

    Your last sentence sounds like you are talking about abiogenesis. Evolution and abiogenesis are two different things.

    If you want to continue with your argument, I'd suggest that you actually cite something so that a satisfactory answer can be formed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  8. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    It is incredibly rare that a creationist shows any understanding of what evolution is while attempting to discredit it. Which is pretty amazing if you think about it.

    And moreso amazing that so few creationists seem to notice that even if the theory of evolution was shown to be completely wrong, that still wouldn't prove creationism.

    It is rare to see creationists actually make arguments for creationism beyond the flat claim that it is obviously so. Or the demand that something can't come from nothing or have always been, while claiming exactly that of the purported creator.

    It is also notable how certain most creationists are, unwilling to allow for the fact that they may be wrong, while accusing people who believe in evolution of the same. The hypocrisy of this is so often unrecognized.

    I believe that evolution is the best guess we currently have for how humans came to be, based on the evidence we currently have. I also believe it almost certainly got some details wrong, and that with more evidence, a clearer understanding will emerge.

    I also acknowledge that the theory could be entirely and completely wrong. It is possible, though I find it very very unlikely, that some alien or God being could have created or planted humans on earth, along with the evidence that would lead us to believe we evolved here.

    It is also possible that I am in a computer simulation, none of you exist, and everything my senses detect are computer programs. We can't prove this is false just like we can't prove Gods are impossible; at least we can't 100% prove it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest that what we see is motivated reasoning.

    The answer they want is that "god did it". When someone says "god did it", like on the various Christian apologist web sites, they just believe it. Why would they look further? Why would they question the crap about thermodynamics preventing evolution and the rest of the total uneducated garbage that gets spewed when they were already fed the answer they wanted?

    Often they don't always SAY "god did it", but their responses are thinly veiled statements consistent only with that belief.


    I choose to ignore the idea that we are in a simulation for now. It's totally untestable. There is absolutely zero evidence of it. And, treating our universe as real is the only possible foundation upon which one can act.
     
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  10. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the previous post by Jolly Penquin except I don't acknowledge that the theory of evolution could be completely wrong. Evolution is often called a fact by biologists, proved

    beyond a reasonable doubt to be true. It is an amazing fact and anyone with intellectual curiosity and average intelligence should be able to understand the case for evolution.

    Those people that don't believe in the theory of evolution usually don't believe for religious reasons or because they haven't spent many hours studying the subject.

    99% of the best educated people on subjects closely related to evolution accept the following statement: "humans have evolved over time". I don't know why those scientists

    were asked a specific question about human evolution as opposed to a bold question like, "do you believe that all life on earth can trace their ancestry to bacteria through natural processes?"

    The theory has been around for more than 150 years and no one has been able to find any evidence that is inconsistent with evolution.


    The Pew Research study
    The above results are entirely consistent with a 2015 study by the Pew Research Center [Rainie2015]. The study surveyed members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), arguably one of the most prestigious professional organizations of research scientists. The study divided the participants into three categories: (a) currently working PhD scientists; (b) active research scientists who have received at least one research grant within the past five years; and (c) domain experts, whose specialty area is particularly relevant to the policy issue in question. Their views were compared with the general public.
    When asked whether "humans have evolved over time," 98% of all AAAS members said yes, and 99% of working PhD scientists and 99% of active research scientists all said yes. This contrasts with only 65% of U.S. adults in the larger public sample [Rainie2015].
     
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  11. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    That does appear to be the case.

    I choose to ignore the idea that we are in a simulation for now. It's totally untestable. There is absolutely zero evidence of it. And, treating our universe as real is the only possible foundation upon which one can act.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, I agree. It makes sense to ignore this possibility. But a possibility it remains, so we should be humble enough to admit we are not 100% certain, of pretty much anything. That doesn't mean we can't act.

    Yet there remains a small doubt. It remains possible, even if very improbable, to be false.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree. It makes sense to ignore this possibility. But a possibility it remains, so we should be humble enough to admit we are not 100% certain, of pretty much anything. That doesn't mean we can't act.



    Yet there remains a small doubt. It remains possible, even if very improbable, to be false.[/QUOTE]
    One can carry this "humility" thing WAY too far.

    The fact that we can't test whether we are in a simulation (and the many other similar issues that we can't test today) does not form a basis for believing magic instead of evolution, for rejecting Einstein in favor of Newton, for believing US medical science is a plot against the citizens, for ignoring that our planet is warming to a deleterious degree, for rejecting education and educated thought.

    Humility does not require ignorance, nor does it justify passing along ignorance to others.
     
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  13. dgrichards

    dgrichards Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but there are to many examples of natural selection to dismiss it in such a cavalier manner. Nothing to do with religion and everything to do with observation.
     
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  14. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    But it does require we not claim 100% knowledge, of pretty much anything. Admitting we can be wrong actually makes us stronger and more sensical, not less. Lack of such humility and self awareness is one of the major flaws of religious belief, theistic or not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  15. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    Why does DBM's avatar look like a comic book supervillain, the Joker? Why did DBM start this ridiculous thread? Is it a joke on all of us who partake
    in this nonsense? This is one of the reasons why I don't like political forums and why I left this forum 4 months ago. There are too many crackpots
    posting nonsense and there are many others who never admit to making a mistake and never learn.
     
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  16. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about Wisdom 19:18-19 (CEB) = 18 If we are careful to observe events, we can see just how the elements of the universe are transformed. It’s the same transformation that happens when someone changes the sounds that a harp makes by changing the key while continuing to play the same melody. 19 In this way, land animals were changed into underwater creatures, while animals that swam in the waters now moved onto the land.
     
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  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Don't you know that all female animals are designed to lay eggs, just like chickens? That includes women, horses, elephants, dogs, cows, rhinos, hippos, whales, seals, etc. That is because all animals have a common ancestor.
     
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  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I suppose that's about all that could be expected from an ancient description of evolution.
     
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  19. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    You really should have paid attention in school.
    Don't you know that the duck-billed platypus and the echidna, or spiny anteater, lay eggs? Women have wider pelvises than men because they are still designed to lay eggs. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...imitive-ancestors-laid-EGGS-study-claims.html

    Do you think that a man loses a rib every time he fathers a girl baby?
     
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  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I can tell you I felt close to blowing a rib!
     
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  21. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    I think that it is pathetic that some so-called educated intelligent people living in the modern world of 2021 believe in silly ancient ethnocentric religious fairy tales. It is really unfortunate that those people did not live in ancient times because they are too stupid to live in the modern world.
     
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  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Amen.

    Our brains evolved in an environment very different from that in which we live in today.

    For example, human brains just do not handle statistics well AT ALL. In ancient times, it was good enough to notice that one got sick after eating red berries, so therefore never again eating red berries. But, our world is FAR more complicated/sophisticated than that as our knowledge and tools for investigation are hugely more advanced.

    We get scared of the J&J vaccine when even if every case of blood clots were the fault of the vaccine, it would be safer to TAKE THE VACCINE!

    We hear that we should ignore science on vaccines, because there are people who got sick after being vaccinated. But, EVERYBODY gest sick after having been vaccinated. In fact, everybody dies after having been vaccinated. Our brains aren't built to naturally differentiate between correlation and causation. That is something we have to learn how to do.

    We need to be teaching science much more aggressively - in ways that allow people to see where our monkey brains fail us in this modern world we live in.

    Education really is the only remedy here. And, I strongly believe our k-12 education is failing us in this regard. We teach the periodic table and physics of motion to those who bother to take science at all. But, I rarely hear of any focus on teaching what science actually is.

    We just aren't well protected against the challenges of the world today.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This idea that the level of detail shown in that diagram should be static is just an unfortunate mistake on your part.

    There are changes to these diagrams FREQUENTLY. These diagrams are simply descriptions of what we know about what has been found. And, our knowledge about these life forms increases with time.

    There are even changes in diagrams showing species alive today. Sometimes the changes are naming changes made to more accurately represent where the bio material sits in such a diagram. Sometimes the change comes from retrieving better evidence that repositions the bio material. Maybe someone finds a bone that actually still has detectable genetic material.

    That doesn't impugn the theory of evolution even slightly. To do that, one would have to find a superior, more predictive theory or demonstrate samples that somehow contradict what the theory of evolution predicts.

    The theory of evolution makes strong predictions about every piece of living or once living matter that has ever been found. Every single piece of material found is a test of the theory of evolution.

    And, this theory has held up against that stupendous level of day in, day out testing since the theory was first figured out.
     
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  24. DBM aka FDS

    DBM aka FDS Well-Known Member

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    I APOLOGIZE!!! I HAVE TWO (2) MOTHERS AND THEY BOTH ARE ON THEIR DEATH BED. I HAVE SPENT TIME WITH THEM. I KNOW THIS SUBJECT IS IMPORTANT BUT... IT IS MY MOTHER'S...

    PLEASE EXCEPT MY APOLOGY!
     
  25. DBM aka FDS

    DBM aka FDS Well-Known Member

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    How can you say "It doesn't matter what Evolution is"? I think you are grasping and don't know what Evolution is.

    Next:. "Could not being extended backwards" is primal... Because it actually can. DNA proves, like in movies like Jurassic Park, it can happen.

    How about this... Let science, since they found a previous *us* DNA go backwards?
     

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