A decade later, a Conservative Florida governor may have been proved right

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by kazenatsu, May 3, 2021.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A decade ago, in 2011, the newly inaugurated Florida Governor Rick Scott (now a US Republican senator) made a decision that seemed to many to be unthinkable: He stood on his principles of fiscal prudence and turned down $2.5 billion in federal money for a high-speed rail line that, if completed, would have connected Orlando and Tampa. At the time, Scott cited his concern with cost overruns for which Florida would be responsible, the wisdom of federal deficit spending, and the projections of ridership.

    Nearly all Democrats in the state, and even some Republicans, blasted the choice. More than one Republican member of Congress called his decision wrong and short-sighted.

    How did that story end? Well, California took the money, which resulted in disaster. Ten years and tens of billions of dollars later there is no bullet train - just lots of wasted money, wasted time and wasted energy - proving once again that if you want to guarantee the ruin of a potentially good idea, make it a federal government project.

    At that time no one really knew for sure exactly what Rick Scott's political philosophy really was, since he was a relative political newcomer. Scott looked at the totality of the decision before him and made a call based on his gut read and his principles. He ignored those who told him he was crazy to turn down "free money" and made what was, in retrospect, the right choice.

    That decision may have helped contribute to turning Florida into an economic powerhouse. Since 2011, Florida's population has grown by 2.6 million (an increase of 14 percent), while California's population grew by 1.7 million (an increase of 4 percent).

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ecade-in-the-making/ar-BB1gjAYC?ocid=msedgntp
     
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  2. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    I guess Florida got lucky compared to California. On the high-speed train project only. But are you saying we should never accept the federal government's "free" money to build infrastructure? Because sending out money now, that will lead to increased economic activity in the future, is bad sense?

    Because the Government can only invest in the future, it can't run a profit.

    Think of all the tourism that was lost because people couldn't hop on a bullet train and go between Orlando and Tampa Florida. Now people have to dedicate their trip to only one of those destinations at a time.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  3. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    From your link

    Perhaps Americans are simply not very good at this process. Hubris does not equal expertise. Did you get in European or Japanese teams to help manage?

    It seems that the main issue was lack of understanding of how the land was being used that the route would take and also not understanding the geology. Why can't this be a learning experience?

    Would these problems be the same in Florida?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  4. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    And we've seen traffic become unbearable ... and getting worse every day. Thanks ass-hole Rick Scott. Now we're decades
    behind in getting mass transit started.
     
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  5. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    And you want to see scary - try driving north when we have hurricane evacuations in South Florida ... Holy ****. what
    a cluster ...

    Eha2oKPWoAAzbwn.jpg
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And yet you don't seem to think there's anything wrong with lots more immigration.

    I've started traffic & immigration discussion threads, and always get lots of progressives responding that the problem is "not that bad", or it's an insignificant problem.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with short-distance trains leading from surrounding suburbs to the inner cities, 20 miles away, to try to help alleviate the commuter problem.
    But that's not what we're really talking about here. The trains in this situation were to connect two major cities that were far away from each other, that people do not travel back and forth between everyday.

    Orlando is 85 miles away from Tampa, and there's not really major traffic on that freeway except when you get closer towards either of the main cities.

    Those trying to escape during evacuations are probably not going to want to take the train. And the electric power supply may go out during a disaster, rendering the train unusable.
    Highly doubt they're going to go to the great expense of creating an emergency back up power supply just so the train could keep running during a large disaster.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That money has to come from somewhere.
    And that assumes it is actually an economically profitable venture.

    Your statement seems completely senseless to me. Yes, government can run a profit (in some situations), and in this case if they can't run a profit they shouldn't be doing this.
    This is the type of public investment that there is absolutely no reason why the government should not be recouping their costs from ticket prices.

    If it is actually a good public investment, why shouldn't the government be able to collect back more from the ticket prices than they spent?? (Let's say in a 15 or 20 year period of time)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  8. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, what I mean is that the government can't earn money by, let's say, investing money in the stock market. The closest they came to that was what they did with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac where they actually made a profit from bailing them out and then selling their stock(?) years later. If I'm remembering right.
     
  9. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    Probably an apples to oranges thing. California, like idiots, were trying to build theirs through some pretty congested areas with outrageous real estate prices under an overlay of a ridiculous amount of regulation in the state. I am not sure Florida would have had the same challenges.
     
  10. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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  11. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    Problem is when Fed money runs out, the state is still on the hook.
     
  12. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    Most of California’s efforts have been in the sparsely populated Central Valley. So far routes through densely populated areas have been kicked down the road.
    The initial length of track between the glittering metropolises of Bakersfied and Merced is behind schedule significantly. And this is laying tracks on flat land.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just for anyone who may not be aware, Bullseye is saying that with a great deal of sarcasm.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  14. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    From what I have read, one of the complaints by the builder is that California has not acquired all the land necessary so they have to keep starting and stopping construction every time they finally buy a new lot of land.
     
  15. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    I believe that’s one of many problems. They tried to buy land, then they looked at current railbeds - but didn’t think they’d handle the speeds trains were going to attain.
     
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  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why is that? Does it have to do with level of the land? Were the strips of land too narrow to be able to level the land, or just the geography of the terrain in that area makes it too difficult? Or the strip of land which the tracks followed swerved too much?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  17. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

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    That was my thought as well - although people may not want to leave their cars behind, a northbound bullet train could be a huge asset when a hurricane is headed for Ft. Laud and Miami.
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Update: So far it is estimated that the high speed rail line project has cost a total of as high as $113 billion.

    California voters had originally approved a bond issue in 2008 for the high-speed rail project, which at the time was estimated to cost $33 billion, and was expected to be completed by 2020.

    The state originally contracted with SNCF, the French national railroad, to help build the train, but the company ceased work on the project in frustration, telling the state that they were leaving to work on another project in North Africa, saying that would be "less politically dysfunctional" than California.

    The state's Democratic leaders, who have led support for the project, have expressed doubts regarding its success, despite previous investments from the Obama and Biden administrations.
    "There is nothing but problems on the project," Speaker of the State Assembly Anthony Rendon recently stated.
    Governor Gavin Newsom has reportedly hesitated to commit to additional state financing. As of now, there is no identified source of funding for the project.
    (Both are members of the Democrat party)

    (source: Rail company left 'dysfunctional' California amid faltering 'bullet train' efforts, Heather Hamilton, National Examiner, October 2022)
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2022
  19. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You don't have the full story.

    The Florida high speed rail was first pushed back in the 1980's (probably even earlier than that) by a private business, they pushed it for years but they could not get enough private funding to build it, so they went political. They tried and failed to get the legislature to fund it. In 2000 they went for a voter referendum, it barely passed but as more people understood it public support disappeared and in 2004 the 2000 referendum was repealed.

    The business people behind the high speed rail kept trying to get govt money. The feds got involved, in 2011 the feds offered "free" money and Gov. Scott turned it down. Kudos to Scott. The high speed rail was tailored for a very specific part of the state (Tamps-Orlando) and it was hugely unpopular. There were legitiamte major problems with it as well.

    In 2018 the private group finally found money and built Brightline, not a bullet train, it goes maybe 80 mph and connects Miami with some cities along the east cost of florida.

    Passenger count is far below half the projected. They projected 2.3 million passengers for 2019 and actually had 1 million, revenue was 20% of projected.

    Interestingly, I looked it up on wikipedia. Wikipedia describes it as a great success with great numbers, totally opposite the truth found in the Brightline financial reports and in news articles from the South Florida area. Wikipedia - reliably unreliable.
     
  20. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    It's silly to compare Bullet Trains to conventional rail.

    Almost as ridiculous as comparing FL to CA

    Given their unique attractions Orlando and Tampa seem to be about the most likely connectors for high-speed rail in the entire world. OTOH given "Brightline" maybe this guy was right.

    As I understand FL history the whole Miami/Keys area was a big bust on this regular RR that was built in the 30s and didn't pay off until the 60s, but that was private money.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2022
  21. submarinepainter

    submarinepainter Well-Known Member Past Donor

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