The North-South divide in England

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by kazenatsu, May 8, 2021.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This informal opinion article discusses the profound economic divide between the North and South of England. For all intents and purposes, the North might as well be a separate country. Not many people from London ever visit up there.

    The land of affordable drinks, reasonable house prices and strangers at bus stops giving it a cheerful "good morning" even when - which is most of the time - it’s freezing cold, pissing it down and said bus appears to have treated itself to a lie-in.

    Eh, there’s nowhere quite like it.

    More and more people are moving here from London apparently. New figures show 13 per cent of those skipping the capital are heading for places like Leeds, Newcastle and Sheffield.

    They're not tired of life, they insist; they’re tired of paying £3.50 for a cup of tea in their local cafe.

    I once interviewed an old timer who claimed that - save for sorting out a world war - he'd never been out the county, not even on holiday. What did the planet have to show him, he asked, that God’s Own Country didn't? And I’m afraid to admit that, instead of saying the Grand Canyon (for instance?), I found myself nodding along. Who needs that when you’ve got the Calder Valley?

    I like it here. If you’re keen on stunning scenery, a less hectic life and having change for chips when you buy a pint - and assuming you can survive without a Pret on every corner - you probably will too. As Lord Tennyson wrote: "True and tender is the North".

    Us in the north get to feel smug that, as suspected, living in a place that’s part Barry Hines novel and part Hovis advert really does have its charms. And them down south, one suspects, take a certain pride of their own. Life’s tough in the hustle and bustle; it takes character to make it. Wimps want away.

    Except I have some quibbles. I can’t help wonder what it says about a country when a tiny uptick of people moving to a particular area is considered so unusual it makes headlines. What does it say about a region when a handful of relocators coming here is celebrated like some game-changing win?

    Which is to say: if this trend is so surprising, then hasn't something gone wrong?

    Well, yes. Clearly it has. It's gone wrong in the north. Wages are lower here, unemployment is higher and educational attainment is poorer. Our children have less chance of going to university than their southern counterparts and more chance of going on the rock n’ roll. For what it’s worth, they’re more likely to get pregnant in their teens too.

    Public transport is crumbling and receives far less investment per person than gilded London. The most common train in use - the Pacer - is so old there’s already one on display at the National Railway Museum. Staff there call it an "example of railway history". The rest of us call it an example of the 8.17 to Manchester.

    More? The NHS is stretched to breaking point, and so are the police. In Hartlepool, residents set up vigilante groups because some nights they had just 10 bobbies covering an entire town of 92,000 people. We don’t even live as long here. Mortality rates in parts of Blackpool and Manchester are worse than areas of Slovakia and Romania.

    Taken together, these regional inequalities are so bad that the UK 2070 commission - set up by the government to look at this stuff - has called for a national renewal fund to be created. It should be modelled, they say, on the scheme used by Germany during its east-west reunification.

    We have, almost literally, become two countries. London; and the rest.

    Because this isn't even really just a northern thing, is it? Swathes of the south-west, the Midlands and coastal regions – not to mention Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - have all been severed from the capital’s economic growth for more than 40 years. Underinvestment, both private and public, has become standard. It will take more than HS2 and Channel Four chucking a few staff into Leeds to put that right.​

    article by Colin Drury
    The Independent


    It should also be pointed out that a lot of the same exact patterns seen here are going on in the US.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  2. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    Yes, it is not a North/South divide but a London and the rest divide. Cannot comment on the US do not know enough about it.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  3. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    I've looked at properties in Whitby, Norh Yorkshire (North in England in this North South divide); and what I've seen in Whitby, the prices there in Whitby; (very much Northern)...
    The real estate prices in Whitby can give London a run for its money.

    Sure; we may have more international airports/trains but...
    You seen the house prices in Whitby? Wow; it's like London prices or worse; and that's saying something as the market is strong here in London.
     
  4. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    I guess it comes down the carbon based fossil fuels; before Thatcher modernised the country (thank God) we were still mining coal up there; that died in the 1980's and Britain got a head start on the 21st Century.

    That's the only reason for this perceived North/South divide; industry died up there.
    Joining the EU and the Common Fishery Policy is what killed places like Grimsby too.

    They've had rotten luck with investment.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  5. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    If it's me against you/London vs. the Country; then to be honest, you're right.
    London isn't an English City; London is England's World City.
    We happen to be in England, but we may as well be our own country.
     
  6. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    Also, London earns the money and gives it to councils up and down the UK; so, unless you're bringing home the bacon...
    London doesn't get more funding, London funds the UK.
    That's another reason for this North/South Divide; we earn the money for the UK economy; This North South Divide isn't random, it's because we make the money down here.

    We earn a higher percent for the UK than California earns for the US; we are a the bread winners in the UK; There is an envy that we have more money because people forget themselves and want what London has but then say it's too busy here; so they want what we've got, without being London.
    They say stuff like
    "London gets more funding."
    forgetting where the funding came from for the whole country.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's fair, but certainly coal mining wasn't the only industry in the North?

    One wonders whether a lot of this money comes from absentee ownership. That is, the money is actually coming from other places, but persons/corporations in London own it, so the money goes to them. It is well known that London is an investment hub, so we have to ask ourselves exactly what that means. Many of these "investments" probably do not actually physically exist in London.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  8. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    Times are changing, regime change and whatnot; a red wall maintained by Labour that was the back bone of politics in England turned blue to the Conservatives and the bastions of that broken red wall are now found in London and Manchester etc; a sort of role reversal where; Boris Johnson is investing more into the North because he's written off the cities to Labour and he's in government and he's also taken us out of the EU and within something like 5 years promises full control over UK waters/fishery telling everybody we need 5 years anyway to build up our domestic fleet; I believe Grimsby, was fishing based and not coal based, so; there was of course more than one source of income, however, Grimsby died in the EU; so who knows? Boris Johnson is sooner going to invest into Grimsby if he's to deliver on his promise of building up a domestic fleet to fish; it might be a drop in the bucket compared to investment; and might I add, the City of London predates England and is it's own business environment separate to the rest of the UK. Furthermore, Her Majesty the Queen or any British monarch cannot simply enter City of London but has to knock on the door before being allowed in in what's just a ceremony these days and a tradition that reaffirms The City of London over the the crown.
    Also, the City of London has a special person in Westminster called the Rememberencer and their job is to pick and choose what parts of UK Law they like and what parts they don't for the City of London.
    It's only a square mile, but, is what it is.
    William the Conquer I think, built City of Westminster to compete with City of London just down the river and made that the capital because instead of where it was before; Winchester.
    That's where UK gets its money - a very lucrative business environment on the Thames.
    It's not the only one, I believe Grenwhich and Carnary Wharf is another, but, that's not as special as City of London since it predates the country and makes the Queen recognise and chooses what laws it wants and doesn't.
    It's also where later, in City of Westminster; they just named the whole general area called 'London'; but, it predates the country.
    I mean, there's that to your North/South divide; the money maker and the industry gone bust answer.
    Also, it pretty much has London City Airport / London (LCY) too, so, it's even got an international airport.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    London alone represents 30% of the GDP of England, while containing 16% of England's population.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  10. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    So we're productive.
     
  11. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    We've got...
    5 airports
    LHR/LGW/LCY/STN/LUT
    and King's Cross St. Pancreas International for the train from Central London to Central Paris.
    ...
    It's also home and a really great place.



    I'm going up to North Yorkshire this year for a couple of days as a tourist from South London, to a place that I've never been to before but looks really nice.
    You get **** holes everywhere, you got nice looking places everywhere; I just hope Whitby in North Yorkshire is way cool like I imagine it to be; but I'm booked and my excuse was uncertainty about travel overseas with Covid and UK coming out of lockdown/social distancing and opening back up...
    I'm going this year, but I doubt I would have as it's not so straight forward as going to the airport and flying to another city (or taking the train to Paris) for me, even though it's England; I had to research and plan because Whitby was just that 1 connection too far for me to want to do it before; but now I know how I'm getting to and from there and I've set myself up with the know how and the equipment
    [​IMG]
    to use what I need up there.
    So I've faith in places up North, but I still love London; it has its blessings; and you can even live a more bohemian existence here if you want to, it's beautiful/I love it.

    I was planning a trip to Amesbury and got myself one of these as well.
    [​IMG]
    This is good for a bunch of places in England; so this excites me too.
    ...

    I've never heard of these before; I'm so used to the my Oyster Card
    [​IMG]

    So my Smart Card and The Key are on my mantel in the envelopes they arrived in; and I know how to top them up/load them with money for when I need them.
    So that's something that's novel to me; having travel cards I've never heard of before for other parts of England.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you assume GDP automatically necessarily implies productivity.
     
  13. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    It's not like the UK GDP is up there with the likes of India and China when it was more fashionable to manufacture in China; a high GDP like that often means (in China at least) sweatshops and internment camps for the locals; India has sweatshops and a dowry system and who is London to tell India or China what to do; but the GDP for the UK's like 6th richest in the world because we have a diverse economy that leads with services, including manufacturing, but doesn't lead with manufacturing and things are refined and manufactured in London and the rest of the UK alike;
    I pass Tate & Lyle on the Overground when I go that way and they're buying sugar cane from overseas in the City of London at the stock exchange and refining it here; so; they may own stock from over seas, but they produce it in London so that's productive, and the people growing the sugar cane in another country get paid with London money because the company buy the sugar cane and own that stock sending money from London to the sugar cane plantation (I don't know where) over seas, for sugar cane; to refine and generate/be productive with here in the UK, using the River Thames on an industrial scale so they a) give us sugar for an affordable price b) earn enough to make a profit c) buy more sugar in the City of London stock exchange; and this is sugar.
    They diversify and have a domestic sugar grown here in the UK somewhere out of sugar beat, but they sell a lot of sugar and UK isn't growing any sugar cane.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  14. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    To make a trip from Whitby to Robin Hood's Bay on the bus, is one bus, but my Smart Card for York won't cover it because it's another bus company operating that route.

    Why can't other places in England be like London?
    1 region, 1 card, no matter who runs it.
     
  15. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you'll be venturing out of your comfort zone into unknown territory. Don't forget your passport, vaccination pass and umbrella!

    Anyway, I wish you'll enjoy the trip!
     
    Montegriffo likes this.
  16. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    I saw something on TV yesterday that my DVR boxed recommended; so I don't know when it aired, but I saw it;

    This in fact, I found it on YouTube; this episode.

    In this episode he's walking a canal that Leeds and Liverpool built that turned Liverpool from a population of 5, 000 people to being a Victorian Era hot spot.
    Tony Robinson, IDK if you've heard of him or not, but he's a beloved figure/national treasure in my opinion here who does a bunch of history TV shows nowadays, and this is but one; I've seen him on TV all over the UK talking about the UK and whatever history that show is covering.

    In this, he remarks how this canal was in use transporting coal from Wigan to Liverpool to as recent as the 1980's.

    So I summarise that; That part of England really did depend on it so when it got phased out, you get that North / Side divide because, the Industrial North pretty much depended on coal, I think.

    Tony Robinson is cool, he makes me want to see more of the country, if that makes any sense; Hell, watching this TV show, I was toying with the notion of recreating that trip along that canal up there/randomness; but I like how he goes around the UK learning about it and broadcasting about it. Random, but, his love for the country is infectious.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'd agree that most of those cities that sprang up in the North were industrial towns. There was an analogous situation in the United States too, although that started just a little bit later in history. Just like in Northern England, many of these towns in the so-called "Rust Belt" region of the United States have since declined and are now poorer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  18. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    No it wasn't.
    They also had steel, shipbuilding and all sorts of manufacturing.
    Just like with coal though Thatcher preferred cheap imports from China, India, Korea, Taiwan etc.
    Can't have those nasty union controlled industries in the Thatcher/Reagan New World Order (Globalism).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  19. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    To a great extent, though, it's the inevitable displacement of one industry by another under the economics pressure or the advent of new technologies.
    For the coal industry, e.g., most european coal producing countries literally poured tons of money down the mines pits, mostly to no avail, instead of preparing the conversion to other, more economical and ecological sources of energy, exposing production workers to lower health and safety risks, or spending money in education to help workers acquire new skills.

    Over the centuries, new techniques and/or improvements to existing ones have made production of certain goods less and less time and manpower cosuming, thereby pushing forcing wokers out of jobs or forcing them to upgrade their competences.

    A good example, I think, is the evolution of cloth weaving from craftsmanship in the Middle Ages to a more and more technical textile industry in the 20th century. From hand-weaving, first, then the advent of the first hand-operated looms, becoming more sophisticated with little improvements every now and then leading to bigger and bigger production capacites, with successively steam engines, electric motors and automation allowing a constant decrease in production costs and required manpower.

    I mention it as this industry was at some time, one of the pillars of Nothern England prosperity.
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The industry was not replaced, it was just moved to other countries.

    I'd say technological improvements probably only explain half these job losses that took place in Northern England. (admittingly a little bit of a meaningless indefinite statement because it depends over what length of time period)

    The benefit of technological improvement in the North, while it did create tremendous wealth in the North initially, probably accrued more to England's South, in subsequent time periods, since they are the ones who owned the industries in the North.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  21. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    I like both North and South England.
    When I first came to England it was to Yorkshire.
    And later to Kent.
     

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