Atheist vs Theist

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by DennisTate, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. Blinda Vaganto

    Blinda Vaganto Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,777
    Likes Received:
    270
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    And atheists are merely pessimists on steroids, aren't they?
     
  2. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Or overly emotional agnostics, robed in stoic pretense.
     
    gabmux and Blinda Vaganto like this.
  3. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What I love most about God is that he does not rush or appear to catch and judge anyone, no matter their degree of regress. Onward goes our lives, nested, watered and fed, while the earth follows its set course, and we all choose our deviations. Do we make our own small voice and light coming from within and from without, ever plying us to restitution and homecoming? Have we evolved to this separation, or are we lured away? We command ourselves, and standing upon a loyal earth, say there is no great commander. I don't understand Atheists. They reason and stand statuesque as it were, commanding to be imbued with life to confess of God. Yet they live and say not.
     
  4. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My bold.
    This is the point about god, he/she/it actually does nothing at all, no matter what the situation. Priests, rabbis, imans do all sorts of thing but never get chastised, except by us, and pandemics go along their way, fought by us without any help from the almighty, despite the prayers of millions. You would almost think that there is no god at all, wouldn't you?
     
  5. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, by all appearance, I agree. And were he real and alive, then by his absence and silence, one would assume, that it would be to mans divine consecration, and our days those of mercy and bliss, knower and unknower alike. It would mean that he upholds and bears us all, giving a measure of credence to all the arguments and reasoning and doubts of his existence. It is a puzzle for people like me who profess that he lives. Yet by his absence he shores up the Atheist and appears to disavow those who give voice to his existence. So we are made to appear as lunatics, crackpots, or given to vain imaginings. To me there is no fault in it by which we are measured by Atheists and Agnostics. Their measure is as fair and natural as a sun warmed thermal. And I could no more fault their conclusions than expect the blind to behold yonder horizon, were appearance the measure of things. I love Gods judgments and all that he does. He sees our hearts. I am thrilled to appear alone and to know that I am not. I grow accustomed to the heat. All that I say of God, is to Atheists, held in suspicion, the continuance of a fairy tale or fictitious novel. Yet there is something familiar about it as if it could be in owing to the life of another man. What has set him off so cracked, they wonder. What is the nexus....brain tumor, bad childhood, Bible scriptures, mineral deficiency? It must be something that can be ferreted out, untangled and measured. Because it cannot possibly be that silent and unseen God who cannot be reduced to science. What is it then?
     
  6. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's childhood conditioning, that's all. As someone once said, give me the boy and you can have the man. And it's very true. I was lucky to only get a weak strain of the virus, so I was able to throw it off easily. Others are not so fortunate.
    But rational thought is spreading, more and more people are thinking for themselves, especially in the developed nations, so eventually we shall be rid of the curse of religion.
     
    gabmux and Derideo_Te like this.
  7. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I was not raised in a religious home. The only times we went to Church were for Marriages and funerals. I had no religion.
     
    gabmux likes this.
  8. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    In that case you have no excuse for allowing it to pollute your mind.
     
    gabmux and Derideo_Te like this.
  9. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Polluted compared to what. What is your benchmark for purity?
     
  10. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes Received:
    1,146
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    <Rule 2> women's looks can be superior. Certainly not always. There are some brutally ugly women, no? But, to women, men look superior, no? <Rule 2>
    Once again, you replace God with science. You want to prove God as you would prove the moon is cheese. For thousands of years, we thought it wasn't possible to prove the moon isn't cheese. Until we were able to have faith and realize we could touch the moon. It is possible to prove God exists if you use the same faith. God will manifest a way for you to come to know God and that God lives. But, it won't be through science or repeatable evidence. For, God does not require this and actually requires to know Him through faith and good works.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2021
  11. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    One would think that to address a divine God who is the creator of all things in the natural world, that one would humble oneself, put oneself away, and seek God in prayer, were ones intentions sincere. But to demand measurable proof of his existence is akin to decreeing from a lofty throne that God be brought before him like a slave to be queried. Odd how some act like a God and then mock the very concept of one. Granted that the nature of this life and mankind in general necessitates a strong personal constitution for survival. But it stands to reason that one also maintain a certain flexibility to accommodate changing circumstances or for the sake of investigation and the increase of understanding and knowledge. Prayer to God I think would meet that measure. But it all depends upon ones sincerity of heart.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
    DennisTate and gabmux like this.
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Injeun....what do you think of my idea that Richard Dawkins Ph. D. is really good at sarcasm..... and I think that he deserves credit for being open to the idea of abiogenesis beginning on another planet but.......
    I think that he is probably either being intellectually dishonest or is ignorant to not admit the far more likely "elephant in the room" possibility of Intelligence beginning in some sort of fundamental energy...... (that I suspect to a high degree would correlate with Energy from Quantum Vacuum)?

    I totally agree with you that we humans must become humble in order to begin a discussion with our Creator... who I personally think is learning and learning and learning and learning.. .. .and getting better and better at creation.... and even in the production of reality films out of our lives..........
    ..... Yes.. .I am thinking in terms of that Life Review that former Atheist Rabbi Alon Anava reported......



     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
    Injeun likes this.
  13. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's enough for me to know that God lives, and to comport myself to his gospel. Dawkins intellect and knowledge is great. But it is as easy for him to fault God and the Bible as it is for terrorists and mass killers to choose to kill scores of innocent people via their trust and vulnerability. It speaks more to the doers than to their victims. It is no crime to die. The fault resides in killing.

    I don't view God as changing by my growth at his directing. He is the constant. And I am his work, so to speak. Granted he may descend to my low place and rise with my rising and appear to grow or change with me. But he is only revealing more of what he always is, while I am the one becoming. I didn't watch the Rabbi's video. It is long and I may watch it later.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  14. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What concerns me in that statement is the appeal "to his gospel".
    Just on the observation alone that 2 billion people follow a different gospel (the Koran) ought to alert us that scripture written by particular peoples at a particular point in time and place cannot claim to be the inerrant "Word of God"; scripture MUST be the word of men in search of God, not the 'Word of God' itself.

    I think Dawkins is correct to criticize biblical scripture, but he is wrong to conclude - on the basis of that criticism - that God himself is a delusion (in his book: "The God Delusion").

    Agreed.

    I'm not inclined to watch it; I suspect he regards the OT as 'God's Word', which is impossible as outlined above; I already know the universe is infused by God - a mystery - toward which all human beings should be drawn, united in awe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
    Injeun likes this.
  15. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Point taken. But I wouldn't embrace the gospel of a God that I do not know. The God I know is referenced by multiple Prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon, such that it is in harmony with him as I know him to be according to his spirit.
     
  16. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here's the thing: ALL humans can relate to these lines:

    "I wandered lonely as a cloud,
    the sounding cataracts haunted me like a passion".

    ...revealing the mystery and awe and wonder of the God of creation himself.

    Whereas some cannot/will not relate to the OT, for example. As Dawkins has demonstrated....
     
    Injeun likes this.
  17. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't quite see your meaning. Can you say more?
     
  18. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm an atheist, and a god.

    I don't mind being atheist, but being a god really sucks.
     
  19. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    1. Would God desire worship from all his conscious created beings - who can perceive Him, even if only "through a glass darkly"?

    2. "If you believe in the Fatherhood of God, you must believe in the Brotherhood of Man".

    3. The much-vaunted "freedom of religion" (conceived after millennia of religious warfare), described in article 18 of the UN UDHR, needs to move forward to a new vision of One Religion in God's universe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2022
  20. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ouch.....

    Blaise Pascal (a theist, iirc) shares your pain:

    "What a chimera then is man, what a novelty, what a monster, what chaos, what a subject of contradiction, what a prodigy!
    Judge of all things, yet an imbecile earthworm; depository of truth, yet a sewer of uncertainty and error; pride and refuse of the universe".
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2022
  21. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Nice quote, really nice in this context.
     
  22. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I assume you are referring to the Judeo/Christian God. You can't force a person to love God or goodness. And his purpose in our creation isn't to be worshipped, but the betterment of our souls. Seeing that God is already God. And seeing that man is already a brotherhood by virtue of our higher nature, regardless the deviations away from conscience. And with the commonality of life being one religion. Then your key points are already met. Most importantly, Gods work involving the salvation of man is already in play. His authorized laborers are calling men to repentance, baptism, and the reception of the Holy Spirit. So your idea, though well intentioned, would be redundant, unauthorized, fruitless in regards to mans betterment, and thus contrary to Gods will.
     
  23. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    .

    No, I have been at pains to point out that God MUST exist beyond the reach of ANY particular scriptures which claim to be "God's Word" , because scriptures are so obviously flawed and contradictory, both internally within a given religion, and sometimes vastly different in the scriptures of different religions .

    Correct, but nevertheless ALL religions imply the 'Golden Rule', discern-able somewhere within their respective scriptures.

    OK, though of course we (believers in a creator God) do worship Him.



    But the stumbling block for reunification efforts of the Vatican and Islam ("peoples of the Book") is scripture itself.

    Refuted above.

    That paragraph to me seems to rely on a particular scriptural tradition.

    "Authorized laborers"? "God's will"?

    God surely already knows who will "repent".....and the difficulties faced by humans: see the Pascal quote above.

    Two thousand years after John penned Revelations ("return quickly, Jesus" ), we are entitled to regard the literal 2nd coming of Christ as obviously mythological, or wishful thinking.

    But does it matter, if God the Creator - a mystery - is the fountain of Love, whom men perceive if they love life in its universality, a state of consciousness which exists within and also beyond any particular scriptural tradition?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  24. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    12,832
    Likes Received:
    5,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I already have a God who lives, is divine, and is the one true God. There is no other beside him.
     
  25. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2017
    Messages:
    8,047
    Likes Received:
    6,770
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Where did the idea of 'god" come from?? Man created it. Mankind has gone though a variety of "gods" throughout history.........

    How would one describe this entity?? There are many descriptions of this entity too..........as it is a BELIEF. Not a scientific fact.

    Mankind seems to have had a "need" to believe in some higher power............but that is changing as our collective scientific knowledge base evolves and advances.and becomes more sophisticated.

    Folks can believe in whatever they want.......if it means something to them.............but they have no right to impose their beliefs on anyone else.

    the world is composed of believers , non believers and every shade in between. All we have to do is figure out how to get along .........and respect all our differences. It is our differences that make this world so interesting .........and wonderful.
     

Share This Page