So God... wrote a book?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Jolly Penguin, Jul 18, 2021.

  1. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Why would an all powerful being communicate a message he wants everyone to know, by using humans to write a text or to act as a prophet delivering the message otherwise? Texts and prophets are prone to misinterpretation, as we've seen with the splintering of the Abrahamic faiths into subsects. But God, if all powerful, would not have this restriction, and could simply make us all just know whatever it is he wants us to all know. So why doesn't he?

    That he/she/it/they rely on prophets and holy texts, instead of simply making us know, tells me that either they don't have a message they want all to know, or they aren't all powerful. If she is all powerful, then she MUST intend all the confusion, and resulting conflict therefrom. And if she then "tests" people on how they react to a message they never understood.... that would be rather perverse.

    Note that us knowing what God wants would not interfere with the free will of what to do now having that information. In fact, only if we do know can we make an informed decision based on the message, and only then would it make any sense for said God to pass judgment on our now informed decision.

    I've raised this problem numerous times in numerous places to believers in tri-omni Gods, and I've yet to get a coherent response. Is there one? What is the explanation? What's the flaw in my logic? What's the best case response from a believer?
     
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  2. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Questions are very much frowned upon.
    The "rule book" was written by men for the express purpose of controlling a large part of whichever society they're in. It's the same thing with other people in various places. They just have a different magical dad in the sky.
    You can't really apply logic to faith.
    Believers just want you to believe too. They have no magic answers either. That's why they get torqued when we start asking questions.
     
  3. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    There are theists who are aplogists and who argue for God. Has anyone here seen this question put to one of them? Would love to know their response.
     
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  4. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    .

    I doubt the OP believes in God.

    .
     
  5. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Why is that relevant? Do you have answer to the question posed in the OP?
     
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  6. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    You've posted so many wrong assumptions about what the Bible says about God... it's obvious to me you have never read it and wouldn't understand it if you had. So one wonders why you bother with a topic like this.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
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  7. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think the answer to this question lays in the difference between the Old Testament (Judaism) and the New Testament (Christianity). The Laws in the Old Testament (The Hebrew Torah) were not written by many people with many different meanings. They were all written by Moses, and even today, there are only two versions, and those versions only differ in the spelling of some of the words (Jewish Hebrew and Samaritan Hebrew pronounce some words differently and this led to variations in spelling), but they both still say the exact same thing. The rest of the books of the Old Testament did have different authors and may vary quite a bit from one translation to the next, but they are not books of law. They are books of history, parable and context. The books of Law have not changed (unless there has been a grand conspiracy of all the Rabbis through all the generations since Moses, which isn't impossible, just highly improbable) since Moses wrote them.

    The New Testament, as I see it, essentially has no law. Christianity is founded on the principle of unconditional forgiveness. So while it has a great many 'do this but don't do that,' they are not laws for which you damn yourself by breaking. The laws of the Old Testament are still important- breaking one of the Ten Commandments is of course still a sin and still condemnable to hell, unless you but ask for your sin to be forgiven. The 'laws' of the New Testament are more like a guide of how you can provide yourself and those around you with a more fulfilling life- love thy neighbor, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, be charitable to those in need, etc. You don't have to do any of these things, its just that the world would be a far better place if everyone chose to follow them. I think there is such a large variety in translations and versions of the New Testament because it isn't a law, but rather a philosophy with a backstory, and is supposed to be open to individual interpretation.

    The difference being: In the OT, God is Lawgiver. In the NT, God is Forgiver. God has left this universe to us to do with (or not) as we will. We 'grew up' in his house, beholden to his rules, but its our house now. Our rules. Which necessitates Him being 'hands off' and letting us go. We are the prodigal son. The only question is will we return having squandered our gifts or having multiplied them? And either way, we're forgiven.

    As to the question 'why doesn't God simply make us all just know whatever it is he wants us to all know'? I think He has. That is to say, I don't think we're supposed to 'know' very much. IMO, all we need to know to fulfill God's plan is: we are forgiven and He wants us to love eachother. And you won't find any version of the New Testament that doesn't make either of these perfectly clear. Its my opinion that 'knowing' (for certain, without any allowance for doubt) much more than this would undermine His purpose in creating us, whatever that purpose may be. I believe everything else we're supposed to find out on our own as part of our journey. I believe part of our purpose is to determine our purpose. I find it likely that it is in our nature to need to struggle and search and question in order to thrive and progress, and had we a concrete path laid out for us, what would be the point? Free Will isn't just the choice between right and wrong or between obeying and disobeying, but it is choosing what to be, where to go, how to get there. All options are on the table because we havn't been limited by any concrete instruction or direction.

    I should probably note that:
    A- this is, of course, my own personal perspective on The Bible. First and foremost I believe God's Word is intended to be a personally interpreted document- its true meaning is between you and God and no one else has any authority to tell you what any of it means. We should of course discuss our perspectives with eachother in case someone else may have a more sensible perspective than our own and we can always change our (or eachothers) minds (yay free will :D ), but we are, ultimately, each our own authority when it comes to our spirituality. This of course puts me in a somewhat secluded realm relative to many other 'Christians.' So don't take this as any sort of 'consensus', I'm sure its anything but.
    and B- I don't consider myself religious. That term tends to connotate devotion to a structure or institution of shared doctrine to which I do not subscribe. I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ died to save humanity from its sins, not because I belong to a group of people who call themselves 'Christians' and/or claim to believe the same as I do. So I see myself as spiritual, not religious. To be honest, I view many 'christians' and most churches to be religious but devoid of any spirituality. But that's prolly a topic for a different thread...
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
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  8. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    This is not an answer to the question. Why not answer the question?
     
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  9. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I don't see what any of that has to do with the question I asked. Certainly not everyone is Christian and there are plenty of well meaning Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc, so the new testament varying or not from one version to another doesn't apply to them, and God has allowed them to exist and has not told them they got it all wrong (if they did).

    That he doesn't intend us to know very much is consistent with him not making is know. So that makes sense.

    But again, only Christians see the new testament as sent by God. Does God intend that? Not everyone gets this message that we are forgiven (or have anything to be forgiven for) or that God wants is to love one another (Fred Phelps missed that memo) or that God even exists (in the case of atheists).

    Why wouldn't God simply make is know at least that much? You said you think he has, but the existence of atheists, Hindus, etc shows otherwise, doesn't it?

    This makes sense sure. One good answer to "why does God not make us know what he wants" would indeed be that he doesn't want anything particular of us other than to find our way and be true to ourselves etc (like a good human parent would). But then how does the concept of divine judgment fit in?

    It puts you alongside many atheists as well. Many Buddhists have a similar mindset too.

    This is a good point of distinction as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  10. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Well first of all you declare for everyone that you will frame the question it's got to be either one or the other and then upon that you go to base your whole argument upon it looks like you have an answer in search of a question
     
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  11. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    One or the other what?
     
  12. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Cause.. despite telling mankind over and over and even, with all the miracles performed to drive home His deity, Mankind just wouldn't listen or remember the Message... So He had it written down.
    Maybe you would find ARB.com interesting .. give you some more shots at killing God.
    With what has been reveled the last twenty years or so, it should be very difficult to continue denying the God.
     
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  13. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    But again, why can't God simply make the humans know? He isn't restricted like humans are by humans not wanting to listen. He can make them know anyway. Like we know that we will fall if we jump or that fire is hot, etc. Instead we hear about prophets and written holy texts. Doesn't that strike you as odd if he wants you to actually know and understand something and he's all powerful?

    Never heard of ARB.com, and I have no interest in killing God. If God actually does exist, I'd like to know it.

    Why so? What has been revealed in the last twenty years or so that wasn't clear before?

    Edited to add: I looked up ARB.com... and this is what I got

    Why are you pointing to an estates company?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  14. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, your use of the phrase "tri-omni Gods" led me to assume you were referring to the 'holy trinity' that afaik is particular to Christianity. I have since looked up the term "tri-omni" and now understand what you actually meant :D

    I can't speak to all the worlds beliefs as I'm not as learned of them as I should be. But I do know that many of them have a similar 'omnipotent deity sacrifices themself so impotent humanity can yet progress and try to achieve utopia' concept. I think just as God has not limited us to a single version of the Bible so as to not stifle our choice of direction, he also has not limited us to a single version of God for the same reason. I do think its likely that more than one set of beliefs can get it 'right' ...at least right enough, anyway. Though I do also believe some religions are creations of the great deciever and exist to derail us from our journey of progression to a state of stagnation, regression and ultimately oblivion, possibly for no other purpose than to spite God.

    I should clarify- I don't think we're intended to be told very much. I think God does intend for us to know much more (probably all), its just that we're supposed to find most of it out on our own as part of our progression. Ultimately, it seems likely to me that God created us to become equal to Him, or perhaps even superior to Him (if thats possible...). Like you mentioned- 'as a good parent would.' :)

    I don't think 'choosing the right religion' is at the forefront of God's plan for us. One of my favorite scriptures (its a literal translation, direct from ancient greek to modern english, so it isn't very smooth) is:
    1 Peter 3:
    "17 for [it is] better doing good, if the will of God will it, to suffer, than doing evil;
    18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
    19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
    20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;..."

    because it seems to me to suggest that when Jesus died, he went to preach to those who are also dead (and presumably, to those who will die in the future) and lead them to God. I could go through all the contextual resources that have led me to this belief if you want, its lengthy. But suffice to say, unless I'm mistaken, acceptance of Jesus forgiveness happens 'in person' after we die, which makes living as a Christian not necessarily prerequisite to eternal life. And that fits pretty well imo with the type of guy the Bible says Jesus was.

    I don't know. I think 'divine judgement' is a Catholic thing? And I find the authoritative doctrines of Catholicism rather distasteful. Nothing against individual Catholics, I suspect their views do not conform with their orthodoxy as much the church would like, and regardless I'm sure many of them love Jesus just as much as I do. But I don't really give a F what the magisterium says.

     
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  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    To be clear for others reading along, by tri-omni, I mean all powerful, all knowing, and all benevolent.
    If a God isn't all three then there is an easy out regarding that God. Perhaps he wasn't able to communicate his message or perhaps he intends the confusion and conflict due malevolence, or maybe he doesn't know.

    Why would God allow a well meaning seeker to fall so astray?


    It is definitely more than just a Catholic thing. You are rather unique amongst Christians, or even Abrahamic beliefs (including Muslims and Jews), even rare amongst God believers generally, if you don't believe in divine judgment over you.[/Quote]
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  16. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    God is 'hands off' of humanity while we determine our path. Some have chosen for that path to be to decieve eachother and lead others away from God. Apparently their free will matters to God as much as everyone else's.

    Maybe you could be a bit more specific in what you mean. Im not sure what relevence 'divine judgement' has to the subject at hand. The way I see it, we are judged, but then forgiven if we want to be.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  17. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I answered your question.. and hit the link in the post of mine. I truly wonder how anyone could not beleive in God.. one guess is it requires willful ignorance.
     
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  18. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    So he started with verbal communication and then switched to written. That doesn't answer why he doesn't make us know and instead relies on these faulty forms of communication that he if all powerful is not limited to. So no, you didn't answer the question.

    I clicked your link now. Was reading on my phone so didn't realize it was a link. It links to a page that also doesn't address my question.

    It doesn't. Do you feel a need to believe that it does or was that just one guess? There are also many many believers in different Gods (Hindus, etc), and many who would call themselves as your own faith but disagree with you on many particulars.

    Assuming for the moment that your understanding of God is the correct one, you are in the vast minority of humans of today and in history who got it right, despite so many, if not most, honestly and earnestly seeking. Do you dismiss them all as wilfully ignorant?

    If God has a message he wants us to know, why does he make us know it? Why would he allow or intend all the differing faiths and religions and all the conflict that comes from it? If he is all powerful that wouldn't have to be, right?

    If that's wrong, how so?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  19. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Many theists, and this may or may not include you, believe that God has particular commandments, creed, or values that he will judge us by. Implicit in that (for most theists who say this) is that we know what the criteria are that he judges us based on. But that isn't so if we don't receive, believe the authenticity of (that it's actually him that said it), and understand the message.

    If he is all powerful, then there is no restriction on him to make us all understand and all agree on what the message is. If he is all benevolent then he would not judge us on how we react to a message we never got.

    One answer could be that God's only message for us IS engrained in us and is simple human empathy, which he placed in is on Creation. But in that case, what is to be made of people claiming to be prophets and books like the Bible or Quran claiming to be a message from God?

    So regarding Holy Books and prophets it still comes back to my question. Why would an all powerful being convey a message he intends to be known and understood by using a messenger prophet or written word, which are limited forms of communication prone to misunderstanding? When he could simply make us know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    God did not know how to write
     
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  21. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Making us understand and making us agree, imo, both undermine free will. Individuality is predicated upon having your own distinct perspective and understanding, and being able to disagree with others. That said, I don't believe you will be judged on a message you never got. Though I also don't believe that message has to written somewhere for you to 'get' it. Each of us knows right and wrong, even if we don't all agree what is right and wrong. I believe it may be a sin for one person to do something when they know that thing is wrong and it may not be a sin for another person to do the same thing when they don't know its wrong. Such as stealing food to feed someone who is starving, for example. I believe that may or may not be justifiable in God's eyes depending on the perspective of the individual who stole the food. Ultimately, only they and God know whether its was right or wrong for them to do, whether they 'got the message' or not. This is part of the reason I hate the concept of authoritative spiritual doctrines. No human can reliably tell another human how to be moral. Now I do believe some things are wrong no matter how much someone might claim 'they didn't know.' Rape, torture, murder and the like, anyone claims 'I didn't know that was wrong' I'm willing to call BS and risk being judged by God for having wrongly judged my fellow man. Some things are just clearly wrong. Other things are not so clear, and that lack of clarity is part of the human experience of having to struggle through life with questions. How dull we would all be if we weren't exercising our powers of reason trying to figure these sorts of things out?

    As to the rest of that, I've already given my opinion on it. I guess it didn't satisfy you. Thats OK. Keep asking and pondering. Its good for us all :D
     
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  22. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think just telling us would kind of defeat the purpose of existence. As far as I can tell, we are all little parts of god. The point of our existence is so that god, or creation, or the universe, has a sense of itself. The little bits of god that we are are veiled, separated from the whole, when we are incarnated. It is through our choices, and the influences of positivity and negativity that god experiences existence. As we live through incarnations, we gradually relearn the truth of what we really are, and with full realization after many lifetimes and experiences, we are ready to rejoin god.

    We find wisdom in different spiritual books, people, and other experiences when our souls or consciousness is ready for them. I believe that is why it isn’t just declared. It would defeat the whole purpose.

    On another point, that is also why I believe there is good and evil. We cannot experience one without the other. That’s why god doesn’t just zap all evil out of existence. It would defeat the purpose of existence.
     
  23. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Religion isn't about coherent responses, or responses at all for that matter. Shut up, believe and tithe (and the greatest of these is tithe)
     
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  24. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

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    This is only true for those in the Roman Imperial Church (RIC) who follow the pope in Rome and other similar cults.
    A very common mistake by those who are influenced by the RIC is that the Bible is a "rule book" when it is not. It is a collection of stories and poetry about how God is reconciling humans with him.
    Logic can be applied to anything. Whether one uses it or not is another question.
    If you're talking about those who believe in the message of the Bible, they believe that those who reject Jesus will effectively be annihilated. So, that is why most believers want you to believe. There are quite a few wolves in sheep's clothing out there, however.

    Those in the RIC do tend to get "torqued" when questions are asked. In fact, in the past, they actually tortured and murdered people for asking the wrong questions.
     
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  25. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

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    Because when he did it in person, it didn't work very well.
    The problem is that like Mein Kampf, many people have a copy but almost no one has read it. In addition, when they do read it, they tend to use a version like KJV which is written in an antiquated language which is only partially English. And if they do actually get a decent version, they inevitable are already reading it with preconceived notions.
    Well, what did God make us to be? It's stated at the very beginning of the Bible- the first chapter in fact. If God did as you said, we would not be able to be what we were meant to be.
    Once again, if you don't read the first chapter of a book like the Bible, you'll end up very confused and make little sense to those who have read the first chapter.
    You've now entered the realm of Greek philosophy and the classical theism of the RIC. The Bible doesn't discuss what you're talking about in these terms.
    Tri-omni? Do you mean omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent? The problem you have is that you're asking the wrong people. People who believe in Tri-Omni gods are Greek philosophers - not Bible believers. The Bible is irrelevant to tri-omni god believers. But here is a youtube video about it, if you are interested in Greek philosophy:

    I don't know. Did you like what the Greek philosophers said?
    To what?
    Probably the fact that you're confusing religions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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