If you refuse the vaccine, you don't matter. It's the people you infect that matter!

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by Golem, Sep 16, 2021.

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  1. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Yes we can still get the virus. The possibility to get so sick that we need the hospital or the ICU gets lowered by a huge percentage. Thats why the US hospitals a full with unvaccinated.
    What the unvaccinated do, they socialize their stand point, when they have to use the hospital, or even the ICU.
    Their health insurance has to pay for it. If they can not afford the co-payment or deductible, they file for bankruptcy and than everybody has to pay for their treatment. Same for Medicare.
    The US health insurances waived the deductible and co payments when there was no vaccines available, correctly.
    But now that is over, correctly.
    You do not vaccinate, you should pay for your own covid treatment, you should not get payed sick leave, same for unemployment, all those benefits, I as a employer have to pay for. Even just with my share.
    Workmans Comp.
    You name it.

    All the goodies we hand out, should be based on a responsible behavior concerning this virus.
    You are unvaccinated, today, and you get it and than need the goodies of our society, sorry. Long covid, unvaccinated, sorry.
    The vaccines were made available on date X to everybody, plus 2 month and you made the decision not to vaccinate, than bear the consequences of your decision and do not roll it over on society and socialize your decision.
     
  2. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's ok. So long as we are clear that I'm right, it's good enough for me.
     
  3. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Depending on the vaccine. Research in Israel, which has used the bioNtech/Pfizer vaccine showed, that the virus load, throat and nasal was lowered by 85%.
    Yes vaccinated people can catch the virus and spread it, but they do no spread the same virus load as un-vaccinated people do.
    I personally assume, considering the area I live in, no vaxers, no maskers, that I get at least once a month, a good virus load.
    I work everyday with the public, 7 days a week.
    Mind you that is a assumption, mathematic probability, because of the case load we have in my neck of the woods.
    If I would test 1 a week, I would test positive at least 1 a month, maybe more.
    Do I wear a mask, only in my business, out of respect for my customers, otherwise no
     
  4. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    Not sure who the "we are" that you're referring to, but I know it doesn't include me.
     
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  5. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    As per the all mighty CDC;
    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html
    The number of COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC are an undercount of all SARS-CoV-2 infections among fully vaccinated persons, especially of asymptomatic or mild infections. National surveillance relies on passive and voluntary reporting, and data are not complete or representative. These surveillance data are a snapshot and help identify patterns and look for signals among vaccine breakthrough cases.

    That means is they can't tell you how many asymptomatic vaccinated people have both gotten covid and walked around spreading it because they wouldn't know enough to report it...because asymptomatic.

    And that's the reality here. We know vaccinated people get it. We know they spread it. We do know they carry the same viral load.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...iral-load-of-covid-as-unvaccinated/ar-AANuNXh
    https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/45bf679a

    And we don't know how many they are because vaccinated people tend to have mild to no symptoms because the vaccine works.

    So people bitching about vaccinated vs unvaccinated simply do not know what the **** they are talking about. Get vaccinated. Protect yourself. But don't bitch about the other guy. Because vaccinated or unvaccinated. The virus spreads.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  6. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    A CDC report says this about viral load, which contradicts your interpretation.

    https://www.rollcall.com/2021/07/30/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/

    The newly released report showing that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.

    The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people, the CDC said Friday.

     
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  7. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    If you take the vaccine, you can still catch, spread, and kill others. And even though the vaccinated catch, spread, and kill half as many as the unvaccinated. It is still that much more than none, making the vaccinated killers nonetheless. Still, this is about odds and the greater good. And so taking the vaccine is the better way to go because it not only protects you, but is less likely to hurt others. Nothing in life is perfect. But we can at least hone it down and make it better. That's what this is all about....damage control.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
  8. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    The cdc admits there is no accurate data to assume how many vaccinated people have covid. Because they are vaccinated, there is a good chance they get it and are either mild to asymptomatic. Thus...there is NO ACTUAL ACCURATE DATA. So if we know that the vaccine does not prevent infection. One should just assume that just as many vaccinated get covid as unvaccinated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Or, at the least, assume it may not be that effective.

    (Effective at preventing infection that is. We need to bear in mind there are very different measures of "efficaciousness")
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  10. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    The data I've seen shows otherwise. And your optimistic assumption is nearer to faith without works than to reason, and is therefore a gamble with life. That the virus is real, and the vaccine works to prevent and mitigate its effects, is reason enough to stay the course, imo.
     
  11. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Post your data.
     
  12. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Everything I’ve posted directly addresses the OP and your subsequent posts I’ve quoted.

    I’m not detailing your thread. I’m demonstrating your authoritarian bent is accompanied by a complete lack of knowledge of the subject you created a thread about.

    I’ve now also demonstrated you make things up out of whole cloth to use as ad hominem fallacy. Not cool bro.
     
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  13. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    So, your assumption is even unvaccinated person is super-speeder? :eek:
     
  14. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I wish it was a chicken **** debate. These people tell lies that kill people. I’m sickened by these lies. They don’t care about anything but control. “Public health” is NOT a priority with these people.
     
  15. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One important thing you forgot to include is out of the 99.3% who may survive contracting the virus, what percentage of them will suffer long term effects, such as cardiac, kidney, liver, respiratory conditions, etc for the rest of their lives which most likely will kill them long term??
     
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  16. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    How are you going to know who is vaxxed and who isn't?
     
  17. Phyxius

    Phyxius Well-Known Member

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    https://www.nejm.org/covid-vaccine/faq

    Frequently Asked Questions
    Paul E. Sax, M.D.

    [​IMG]Paul Sax, M.D., a Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and an infectious disease specialist, provides concise and engaging answers to clinicians’ questions about Covid-19 vaccination. Take a look below for his answers to some common questions about the two mRNA Covid-19 vaccines and the adenovirus-vectored vaccine authorized in the United States.

    Do the vaccines prevent transmission of the virus to others?

    90% reduction in the risk of asymptomatic infection compared with those not vaccinated. Additionally, after day 29 in the Johnson & Johnson vaccine study, there were 18 asymptomatic seroconversions in the vaccine group and 50 in the placebo arm — a 66% reduction. It is reasonable to assume that fewer asymptomatic seroconversions means fewer chances to transmit. In addition, in Israel, cases of Covid-19 declined among unvaccinated children as the proportion of vaccinated adults increased. opens in new tab; this suggests a population-based benefit of widespread immunization through reduction of contagious cases. Overall, these encouraging data serve as a reminder that many vaccines in wide use today powerfully protect against both disease and virus transmission — so much so that infection control is one of the main motivators behind some vaccine policies. opens in new tab.

    Vaccine effectiveness in reducing the risk of transmission again became news with the latest guidance on mask wearing from the CDC. Referring to the cluster of cases in Provincetown, Massachusetts, mostly among vaccinated people, the CDC cited data that SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated people with Covid-19 were just as high as in unvaccinated people. opens in new tab — this implies vaccinated people are just as contagious. While we don’t know whether this refers primarily to symptomatic people, and the study did not directly assess transmission of the virus to others, it’s a reminder that the vaccines don’t eliminate the risk of transmission — the protective effect will never be 100%, just as the vaccines are not 100% protective against symptomatic disease. I reviewed further implications of this outbreak here. (Last reviewed/updated 25 Aug 2021)
     
  18. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

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    But….. But….. But….. Biden said
     
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  19. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

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    No… if this is about damage control then just take the vaccine and be happy. This is truly about force. If it lessens your chance of dying like all you claim then why are you worried?
     
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  20. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    That 90 percent reduction in transmission is old data since it's from April. But the cdc goes further to suggest that those who are vaccinated and have had breakthrough cases is undercounted. Since their data relies on either people going to a clinic because they are sick or to volunteer the fact that they are sick. Since the vaccine makes the viral infection asymptomatic or mild at best the majority of the time. It could easily be missed or not declared. So since we know people who are vaccinated can walk around infected with the same viral load. I have to assume that the vaccine does little to know protection against getting infected and only protects against getting sick.

    Until someone does a test to see if someone vaccinated still caught covid and does a large enough sampling to extrapolate for the rest of the population. We have no way of knowing how many people vaccinated still got covid. the data is missing which is understandable as the virus is constantly mutating.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  21. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I can't remember where I saw it. But reasonableness is always present and free.
     
  22. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    You are being both unreasonable and ridiculous to suggest that the data you've seen but can't remember the source is a better hot take then the most up to date statement from the cdc which I've posted many times in this thread.

    It is UNREASONABLE to suggest that there is any adequate data that details how many people vaccinated have had breakthrough cases since the likelihood of those vaccinated but infected with covid would be either mild to no symptoms at all. As such, they wouldn't even bother to declare they were sick. The CDC states as much. And so far there have been no studies that I'm aware of (or the CDC for that matter) that test to see how many of those vaccinated actually recovered from Covid without knowing it.

    All we know is that those who have been vaccinated can be infected and carry the same viral load. So until you can show me a study that doesn't currently exist that is recent enough to include the delta variant, your data is either outdated or non existent.

    Vaccinated people will spread this thing, they just don't get sick from it. That's where we are right now. That's the reality. That's according to up to date information from the CDC and logic.

    Since that is the case, there is absolutely no justification to enforce authoritarian dictatorship control over the populace and force those who are uncomfortable getting jabbed to get the vaccine through coercion or force. They are making their own private choice of risk/reward, and I respect that choice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
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  23. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Not worried. That's a blithe review of reason. Is a call to arms an imposition?
     
  24. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. It ceases to be private when it fills our hospitals with the dead and dying, burdening their fellowman with their intimate care and burial. But I tend to agree with you about a vaccine mandate. Still I think it more valiant to encourage vaccination than to disparage the spirit of its rightness or propriety.
     
  25. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    We voted in an administration which is flooding in 10's of thousands of possible covid infected illegal immigrants at the border. Sick or not sick, these people are going to flood all of our social systems including health care. Which means our health care is already ****ed. (sokay though, so long as they vote democrat, am I right?!)

    Expand health care. That I can support. But like anyone else who makes piss poor life choices and as a result ends up in the hospital for whatever reason. Be it diabetes from a piss poor diet. Or lung cancer from smoking or a broken leg from a skate border...that's their personal choice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
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