Why libertarianism isn't conservatism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by aCultureWarrior, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ummm ... apologies for the misunderstanding of your position. Not sure which Christians you are claiming to have sold out "God" - nor what part of the rainbow flag being referred to.. but, what Im claiming is that the Religious Right has sold out Jesus .. specifically the fundamentalist evangelical/pentecostal.

    The Religious Right took over the party long ago .. was in full control after Goldwater - as Goldwater predicted - and have been in large part responsible for Reds departure from the founding principles .. respect for essential liberty .. constitutional republic.

    Instead they took up the utilitarian mantle .. and down the slippery slope we went --- hand in hand with Blue who pioneered utilitarian delightes.

    Since when did one have to be "anti abortion" to be a Republican ? Answer - since after Goldwater .. after the RR took over the party - and all manner of utilitarian evils flowed from the opening of this pandora's box.
     
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  2. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Yet the Founding Fathers abhorred what modern day libertarians embrace and warned against democracies, hence giving us a republic, if we can keep it.

    Make your case as to what makes libertarians "traditional liberals".
     
  3. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Romans 13 isn't selling out God nor is embracing Jesus' two greatest commandments.

    If you would like to discuss what the Founding Fathers stood for, as a libertarian, you won't be pleased.
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What does Romans 13 have to do with the religious right taking over the GOP --- and which commands are you referring to.

    I know what the founding fathers stood for .. much better than you .. and abide by the founding principles -- as well as the teachings of Jesus - much better than you - so fire away.
     
  5. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, the concept of natural rights is much older than the Enlightenment. The first natural rights doctrine (and social contract theory) was developed by William of Ockham (of Ockham's Razor fame) in the early 14th Century, and this was long after the concept first emerged during the 11th and 12th Centuries when civil and canon lawyers began pouring over the content and language in the Corpus Juris Civilis which had just been recovered in its entirety, and Gratian's Decretum, which catalogued the first millennium of Church (Catholic) law. Not coincidentally, this occurred while the commoners in Medieval Europe's growing towns began asserting their natural rights against the feudal nobility, which resulted in the granting of charters, rights and local self-governance where democracy was reborn in the West.

    It should also be noted that it was the Medieval rights theorists (particularly Ockham) - not the theorists who followed them centuries later - who made the leap from natural rights being a divine gift to rights being a product of our "nature", i.e., our faculty of reason.

    I'd be interested to see you substantiate your claim that almost all libertarians are atheists.

    As for the writing and authors who form the backbone of libertarian philosophy, I hardly think the man I consider the Godfather of Libertarianism, William of Ockham - a Franciscan monk - qualifies as an atheist writer.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

    Thanks. Personally, I think Kirk's list is a good guide, and I think libertarian philosophy, from my perspective at least, is consistent and compatible with Kirk's principles.
     
  6. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    I've heard your con many times before which is: Jesus/God doesn't want Christians to get involved in politics. Exodus 18:21 shoots that down, as well as Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13-15 explaining what the role of civil government is.


    So you know that the Founding Fathers abhorred homosexuality and made it a felony in every State. You also know that Thomas Jefferson proposed castration for those males convicted of "that infamous crime against nature".

    So much for the Founding Fathers being 'libertarian' huh?
     
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  7. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    I see that you and lil Mike are claiming that Chesterson and Kirk are the source of conservatism in America and claiming that they were libertarian in their ideology (gee, unlike the Founding Fathers, who ardently embraced Judeo-Christian doctrine, I couldn't find one piece of legislation that Chesterson or Kirk were responsible for).

    If either of you would like to discuss the basis of what G. K. Chesterson and/or Russell Kirk got their conservative ideology from, then I'd love to discuss that.

    How about I get the ball rolling with Russell Kirk's beliefs?

    "To be liberated from God and all traditional theological notions was at the heart of the new liberalism. This would result, of course, in binding human souls in the chains of rank materialism and new moral doctrines to be defined by the philosophers with the biggest sticks. Left without Divine grace to guide and propel him through life, the new liberal found comfort by herding with his own kind."
    Russel Kirk vs. the Libertarians « Catholic Insight

    Of course "the new liberalism" includes libertarianism as well (which the title of the article clearly states), as God is nowhere in the picture with either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There teachings of Jesus are in none of the scripture you quote .. and Romans 13 is laughably uninspired - and in no way tells religious people to push their beliefs on others through law.. quite the reverse .. Paul councils strict Obedience to Hitler.

    You are the one who has been conned into believing that a maniacle dictator should not be rebelled against.

    What does dislike of homosexuals have to do with essential liberty .. as per the founding principle ? As expected you do not understand what you are talking about.
     
  9. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    They didn't warn against democracy as a means of choosing leaders. They warned against it as a way of deciding policy. What we view as democracy today was exactly what they wanted. The only classic democracy I know of is found in Switzerland. All the others have some other form of government, the republic being the most common.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What two greatist commandments of Jesus is it that is being embraced by the Religious Right ? Most of these folks don't have the faintest idea what the teachings of Jesus are .. youself included I am guessing .. but perhaps not.
     
  11. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]

    Actually, I did NOT claim that 1) Chesterson and Kirk are the source of conservatism in America and 2) that they were libertarian in their ideology. I didn't see where Mike made either one of those claims, either, so that leaves you making those claims. Why is that?

    For the record, what I expressed were my own personal opinions regarding Kirk's list and libertarian philosophy vis-à-vis the list:

    As for the Founding Fathers, who weren't mentioned in my post, there's no question that many of them ardently embraced Judeo-Christian doctrine. Whether all of them ardently embraced Judeo-Christian doctrine is debatable,, especially if you're going to include Thomas Paine as a Founding Father (I don't). Moving along to your comment about legislation, I have no idea what that is about and what it is relevant to, but I will say that many of the men who contributed in one way or the other to the founding of this nation and the ideals and principles it is founded on were not legislators. Jonathan Mayhew immediately comes to mind.

    Perhaps, Mike would be interested - I don't claim to be an expert on Chesterson and Kirk and where they got their conservative ideology from.

    However, I did notice that you never responded to my rebuttal to your Opening Post and I would be interested in discussing "the source of conservatism in America". Furthermore, since I did mention William of Ockham and the other Medieval rights theorists who were responsible for developing the first natural rights doctrines centuries before the Enlightenment, you're invited to discuss them too.
     
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  12. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Human thinking does evolve, but then, that means natural rights are not in fact natural and are made up by man and are no more natural than Mao's red book.
     
  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    You should start a thread about your brand new discovery.
     
  14. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well the Magna Carta predates William of Ockham, but I just don't buy that that Ockham is "the Godfather of Libertarianism." That's silly.
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    You've misread me if you think I claimed that "Chesterson and Kirk are the source of conservatism in America and claiming that they were libertarian in their ideology." I never made any such claims.
     
  16. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    I don't think I suggested otherwise, did I? The idea that in a nation of free men, we are emdowed with certain rights -- whether by a "creator" or by "nature" or by nothing more than a majority of people agreeing in them is inconsequential in my view. The result is the same: personal autonomy in the context of the defense of life, liberty, and property.

    "So say we all..."
    -Cmdr. William Adama, Battlestar Galactica.
     
  17. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Given that he developed the first rights doctrine and social contract theory, amongst many other things, I wouldn't say it's silly, but I meant it in the same way that some people consider Gerrard Winstanley the godfather of communism. It would probably be more accurate to say that Ockham was a proto-libertarian whose ideas and positions were further developed by others over a long period of time.
     
  18. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    What is Judeo-Christian Doctrine? Do you think that conservatives should strive for theocracy? Should God, but not the people, rule the country?

    I think that liberalism is neither conservatism nor leftism. It's a distinct ideology based on freedom, individualism, and basic human rights.
     
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  19. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Then you've changed your mind from the issue I was challenging:

    So if you want to say natural rights are "nothing more than a majority of people agreeing" than yeah, I guess I can agree with that, but that's not your original argument.
     
  20. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    OK so what was your disagreement with me again?
     
  21. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    No.

    You're being a little pedantic, friend. Natural rights come from the fact that a majority of people agree that we have them because we breathe air...
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  22. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    So they are based on "democracy." OK but that seems a little unnatural to me.
     
  23. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    Well, not everyone agrees and you certainly don't have to.
     
  24. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Look up the word "Apostles".

    Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2: 13-15 establish that God created civil government and what it's purpose is.

    On the contrary. If the civil leaders don't punish evil (and hence promote good) but instead promote evil, as you libertarians do, then they're not legitimate leaders in the eyes of God (pssst, this is where you rant about theocracies, and I ask you if the US was a theocracy when abortion, homosexuality, recreational drug use, etc. etc. etc. were illegal).

    I'm sorry that you're ignorant of what Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2: 13-15 mean, but then you're a libertarian, so that explains it all.

    If the Founding Fathers were the equivalent to modern day libertarians, then they would have embraced sexual perversion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  25. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    They abhorred democracies, one of the reasons that they established the Electoral College.

    Try to be more clear in that statement, as it's the role of civil government via the electorate to "decide policy".
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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