Something new about the Trans rights movement

The question is if that's the same as having the social identity of a man or a woman. And the question from the OP is if you should get to dictate which you are to society or if it is negotiated with society.

Not anymore, and not consistently throughout history. And why should marriage only be between one man and one woman? Why not one man and multiple women? Why not one man and another man?

Are they though? Or are they just traditions?

Yes. That is too much to ask. To "simply remain near to that which is already established in truth and familiarity" is both anti-liberal and anti-science. We should always be questioning.

Again, are these truths or just traditions? You have not proved they are truths.

 

Yes, for too many, and to every Democrat that I know, it is indeed too burdensome to honor the wisdom of our forebears.

Reminds me that Vladmir Putin asked, when confronted by the ridiculou Russia collusion story, "Have you all lost your senses?"

To which Pat Buchanan replied, "Yes, Vlad, we have."

 

I think Derideo is the guy/girl who puts every 4th word in all caps, presumably for emphasis and in place of shouting. If so, I ignored him/her years ago.

 

Yes. That's the person. I do not like to put anyone on ignore, but I just did the same.

 

I've been trying to figure out what is at the bottom of this debate. I suspect the problem is that some of us on the right don't quite believe that trans people are doing anything other than cross-dressing and starting to take themselves too seriously, or alternatively, they are just pulling our legs.

 

Check your PM box.

 

I think that may be so. But I also think that is an error. Many of them are not just cross dressing. They actually do believe and feel they are a gender other than the one society sees them as.

The question for this thread is whether or not that puts any onus on society to see them and regard them as the gender identity they claim. Or if this should b a negotiation with society.

And as I wrote in the OP, this is something that trans rights movement demands that the other civil rights movements don't. It is something different. Yes, they want to be treated as equals and not be discriminated against, like the others, but they also want to be regarded as a gender identity that society at large says isn't theirs.

When white people claim to be black, we get a very different social response than when a biological man claims to be a woman. And even making that comparison is met with outrage.

 

The conservative reveres tradition because he understands that it results from centuries, if not milennia, of observation of what works best over time. It isn't conceived as a campaign to oppress.

Obviously, there are some traditions (child sacrifice, genital mutilation) that horrify the civilized man, but to dismiss a common understanding as "just tradition" is not a strong selling point for its suppression or elimination.

 

Agree. But something being a tradition also doesn't mean it can not or or should not change with the times. How we conceptualize marriage has changed many times already throughout history. It is no longer a kin to ownership (of a woman) and black people can marry white people now.

 

Maybe. But "with the times" is vague. What times? An idea is not good just because it's modern. I don't see a difference in quality between the progressive's argument that "we can never go back" with the conservative's argument that "we can never go forward."

Neither addresses the merits of an idea. At any rate:

"Conservatism never is more admirable than when it accepts changes that it disapproves, with good grace, for the sake of a general conciliation."

~ Russell Kirk

 

What is SAD is that the OP resorted to PF Rule Violations when the OP was UNABLE to support the FALLACIES that were EXPOSED.

That the OP has now CHOSEN to ABANDON all attempts to engage in a debate on the merits, or lack thereof in this instance, of their position says VOLUMES.

I guess there are those who simply cannot DEAL with the Scientific DATA that establishes that Transgenders are BORN the way they are.

 

That is the PROBLEM here!

What WAS "basic" Science has now been EXPANDED into a more INDEPTH level of KNOWLEDGE.

If it wasn't for SCIENCE you would NOT have the computer and the internet you are using to rail AGAINST the PROGRESS of KNOWLEDGE.

Science is WHY you have FOOD to eat and LIGHTS to see in the dark and WATER coming out of your taps and a ROOF over your head and a VEHICLE to go places.

Science is why you LIVE LONGER and HEALTHIER.

YOU took all of those BENEFITS bestowed upon YOU for GRANTED.

But NOW Science has ESTABLISHED that what you BELIEVE is FALSE when it comes to how our DNA works.

No amount of foot stomping DENIALISM is going to INVALIDATE the Scientific DATA that has established that we are NOT merely a BINARY reproductive system but rather a more COMPLEX SPECTRUM of INDIVIDUALS who do NOT fall into Stone Age superstitious boxes.

Society EVOLVES constantly!

If it was STATIC we would still be tribal groups living hand to mouth in caves.

Society ADAPTED from HUNTER_GATHERER to FARMING to INDUSTRY and now to INFORMATION.

Along the way society DISCARDED beliefs in DEMONS as the CAUSE of SICKNESS and replaced it Science bases MEDICINE instead.

Society DISCARDED the inhumanity of SLAVERY and replaced with REASON based Individual RIGHTS instead.

If there is a "war" it AGAINST society and reason and science.

FUNDAMENTALIST believers are a DECLINING demographic in our current INFORMATION based society.

Not hard to figure out WHY that is happening because they REJECT the PROGRESS towards a SOCIETY of ACCEPTANCE and KNOWLEDGE.

FACTS matter!

 

Science and foolishness diverge. One who believes him/herself another gender is to walk away from not only science, but away from reason, truth, self evidence, common sense, reality, and sanity. Would you tell someone on a high ledge (who believes they can fly) to go ahead and jump?

 

The way they have gotten around this is to claim that they are not changing their sex, but only their "gender." Of course, this doesn't square with the associated push to require the state to subsidize sex reassignment surgery. In other words, they know full well that they are trying to change their sex, which is nothing but delusion leaving too often to mutilation.

The courts have not uniform acceded to this push, but they are taking the claim that it is part of health care and a "right" very seriously. Does anyone here seriously believe that a liberal supreme court would not consecrate this option as a "right"under the constitution?

 

Some delusions are more harmful than others. Somebody on a ledge who believes they can fly is an immediate danger danger to themselves, like somebody who thinks other people are demons out to kill them is an immediate danger to others.

Somebody who feels or relates more to the opposite sex than their own sex isn't such a danger to anyone, unless and until we allow them to foist this upon others and do things like join gendered combat sports or punish people for using the "wrong pronouns".

I see it similarly to religious beliefs. If you honestly and truly believe in a particular God and religion etc, and it is an important "reality" to you, that's fine with me, and I may even wish you well on your religious holy days, etc. That is until you you try to foist it upon me and tell me I must live according to your religious dictates.

To me, referring to a transgender woman as "he" instead of "she" is a lot like saying "Have a Merry Christmas" to a Muslim. It may be a bit insensitive and ignorant, but it should not be forbidden. You should not be forced to fast next April because it's Ramadan. And you should not be punished for offering a lunch to a Muslim on Ramadan, not even if it's a pork chop.

 

I'm not sure that that's not where we are. I honestly don't know the answer to this, but may a parent lawfully pull his child from a public school (assume he can't afford to send them to private and is unqualified to provide homeschooling) if the school in essence requires the child to acquiesce in a trans child's assertion that he is a girl? One who still has male genitalia but will be waltzing around in the showers during physical education class (if that's still a thing) with girls changing clothes in the same room? His child wants to play sports but must wrestle or run track against boys who claim.they are girls?

There is something wrong about this and going along with it is becoming more and more required of those who see it as fraudulent or sick.

 

There is definitely something different here, above and beyond merely wanting not to be discriminated against for being trans. It is something additional and beyond what gay, black, and women's civil rights issues are about. Black civil rights movement isn't about Black people wanting to be seen as white, while keeping discrimination against "black people" (not them because they are "white" now) a thing.

The shouty person I have now put on ignore kept demanding that the trans rights movement is only about trans people being refused jobs or beaten up etc. It isn't. It is also about this other thing above.

 

I also agree to what was said above about Trans' and Women's Rights movements being in direct conflict with one another. You can't have women's rights as separate from men's rights if you acknowledge that men can decide they are women. As you say, if women are entitled to a separate bathrooms away from men, then men who declare they are women can easily undo that. Same goes for women only gyms, battered women's shelters, etc. Same goes for women's sports.

 

Yes. My reflex is to think that very few boys would mind a curvaceous, buxom and nude 16 year old girl, who thinks she is a boy, wallking around in the boys locker room. Soaping up in the shower? "Will you hand me a towel?" "Uh ... what?" Heavens.

A big muscular hairy guy showering with the girls? I don't think would work.
But I don't know. I was in high school in the 60s and there was an open community shower for the male athletes and the boys' p.e. classes. The girls, I think had individual shower stalls with curtains, but I don't know that they actually showered in there, because I never remember them coming to English class after P.E. with wet hair. All the boys had wet hair after p.e..

 

Seems like more of a personal privacy thing to me. And I don't really see why men should have to see or be seen by other men naked if they don't want to, same for women with other women. And if people are insecure about the opposite sex seeing them or them seeing the opposite sex and having sexual arousal happen, why isn't this same issue stopping gay men from being in the men's locker room, or gay women in the women's?

 

ONLY the Science Deniers are being FOOLISH!

The Scientific DATA establishes that there is a GENETIC basis for transgenderism.

FACTS matter to everyone except Science Deniers.

 

The OP is the one who CANNOT substantiate his totally BOGUS allegation that his IMAGINARY "other thing" even exists!

SAD!

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAA!

The content above just REEKS of the FAILURE to have even a SMIDGEON of understanding of what it means to be transgender!

FtM and MtF transgenders are NOT into FLAUNTING their bodies because the BODY they have does NOT align with WHO they ARE.

But thanks for EXPOSING the egregious ABSENCE of KNOWLEDGE rampant among Science Deniers.

 

Nonsense, science cannot lie. Only people do that. It is impossible for one to be other than ones birth gender. A male will never be a female. A female will never be a male. And Satan will never supplant, displace, eclipse or be God.

 

Science is NOT lying because it has ESTABLISHED that there is a GENETIC basis for TRANSGENDER people like myself.

I was BORN transgender!

Not my problem if all you have are Stone Age superstitions instead of VERIFIABLE KNOWLEDGE to base your positions on.

Sad!