Are we all damned?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Lindis, Nov 24, 2021.

  1. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    Are we all damned?

    This seems to be the Gospel of some Christians:

    We are all damned, right away from birth.
    And all human beings deserve to be damned, because we are all so bad.

    Now what can we do about it?
    The answer is: NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING!
    We can only wait for the "grace of God" - when God happens to be in a good mood - then he may save some.

    We ourselves can do NOTHING!
    If we do good works and try to be good persons - that does not help at all.
    It might even make God angry - when he sees that we are so arrogant as to try to take our fate into our own hands.
    Then God may become so angry that he damns people twice over!

    But those Christians who think so usually also tell us, that they personally are saved.
    Who come?
    How do they know?
    Well, Jesus has told them personally.
    Lucky people!

    Now what do you think of this kind of "Gospel"?
    And do you know people who believe in this kind of "Gospel"?
     
  2. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    Now I am really curious what you will say.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Sola Fide" Salvation by Faith alone .. a "Free Pass" through Judgement .. "Just Believe" and you will be saved.

    The problemis .. Believe what ? That because you believe some God came to earth and hung himself on a cross .. and this act wiped every sin you will ever do clean from the slate. "Sweet"

    This is not from Jesus though .. this is from the Martin Luther Idol .. who takes his material from Paul .. and don't think even Paul would accept Luther's doctrine .. nor does the majority of christianity .. Catholic and Orthodox have a works requirement to earn entrance into heaven..

    Jesus contradicts this doctrine .. in the Sermon on the Mount .. the theme of which is how to get through the pearly gates Matt 5-7. It is a good read .. and all one need to read IMO -- to call themselves a follower of Christ -- which most Christians are not .. so bit of a connundrum there.
     
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  4. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Everyone is only accountable for what they know and do, not for what another knows, says or does. Your conscience will testify to this.
     
  5. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    As a young Catholic boy my idea about religion was like this:
    Every good person will go to heaven, no matter what religion they might have.
    Only a tiny tiny minority of really bad bad people will not go to heaven at once, but some time later.

    When I was around 20, I met some of those very very pious Christians who think that they are the only people who deserve the term "Christian".
    And their idea was a bit like this;
    Hardly anybody goes to heaven.
    To be "saved", you must be "re-born".
    And that happens this way: You must declare your bankruptcy, so to speak.
    You must say things like: "Dear Jesus, I am nothing and can do nothing. I am a sinner! Please help me and save me!"
    And then, when Jesus is in a good mood, he may save you, if you are lucky.
    There is no other way.

    Now i am just reporting this.
    It is not what I think.

    What do you think of all this?
     
  6. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Doesn't the Bible say when asked about what one must do to have eternal life, one should sell one's possessions and follow him? That seems to me to indicate that there indeed is something we can do about it. If one can be saved if God is in a good mood, then I guess we can do something about improving his mood, I hear he finds sacrifices pleasing.

    That it does not matter until it's shown to be believable. For all we know, we might get eternal life by praying to Vishnu. Unless we link these ideas to reality, they at best amount to illustrative hypotheticals.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  7. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    I think it's all 'fake news'! :)
     
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  8. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    The Bible "says" lots of things - and also often the opposite of those things.
     
  9. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    Exactly! Why not! :)
     
  10. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    I have a feeling that many of those over-pious "re-born" Christian fundamentalists are full of glee that they are "saved" -
    - while 99,999999999999999999999999 percent of humanity is damned forever by a "loving" God.

    And what is your feeling about it?
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You ignore or misunderstand the reason for the damning.

    People will be damned because they have a heart that will not do good things, but rather will do bad things.

    Anything which affects A affects B.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think anyone said literally "that does not help at all".
    It's just that merely trying to do good works by itself isn't enough to save you.
    Why? Because probably merely trying by itself isn't enough to succeed well enough.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I thought it says grace is available to all? (at least all those still living on earth)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  14. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    Who said so - when and where?
     
  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    All damned?

    No. Only you.

    You know what you did.

    ;)
     
  16. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    Lots of super-pious Protestant "Bible Christians" say so!
    And in even harsher forms.
    And you can believe me: I speak from experience.
     
  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My wife is Pentecostal and I think that there are some Pentecostals who approach even the Christian Bible in a very negative manner..... but many of the Christians that I hang out with would draw our attention to the fact that King David's biggest errors that were written in scripture led to his being able to write Psalm fifty one which has led to millions of people coming to the belief that their prayers and their repentance could result in their lives being transformed...... and they were indeed correct.

    I personally believe even in the salvation of the fallen king of the Watchers named Azazel.....
    which has enormous implications for our time period and the near future.....


    "but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel."(Leviticus 16:10 RSV)


    Yom Kippur the Rapture Connection????








     
  18. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    John 3:16
     
  19. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Judaism believes that all people, Jews and Gentiles, can win God's favor. Jews must do 630 commandments and Gentiles have 7. Lucky them.
     
  20. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    Not Jack?
     
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  21. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

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    Not ten?
     
  22. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  23. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

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    Well, lets go through the various beliefs of those who regularly call themselves Christians.

    First, let's start with the Papists. The Papists actually believe that when a good Catholic dies, they go straight to Purgatory - including the Popes.

    Yep, they didn't tell you that did they? In addition, Papists believe that most who aren't papists end up in purgatory as well. Basically speaking, if you die ignorant of the true faith of the Papacy, you won't go to hell, you go to purgatory. But you have to be what they call invincibly ignorant.

    In short, Papists believe that anyone who knows enough to oppose them is going straight to hell.

    In addition, Papists believe that anyone who masturbates or misses one of their meetings will go to hell if they don't get absolution from a priest. Hence why a doctor hand-pumped the heart of a president long after he was dead so that they could say he received absolution in time. I've seen Papists leave their jobs at work to rush to the priest to save themselves from hell.

    On to the next group - Reformed, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc.

    These follow Classical Theism for the most part. It's called Classical Theism because it's based on the classics - Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, etc. Basically, God created the universe and all times in that universe in a single simple action. Here is a professor of philosophy explaining it.



    Basically, God has already caused everything, so yes, he has already determined who is going to heaven or hell because he already has done it. I know people hate videos here, but if you really want to know what I'm talking about, you need to watch it.

    So, yes, there are variations of Classical Theism, but yes these are the ones that say you're going to hell or heaven and there's nothing you can do about it. It's already been done.

    I tire and will stop here for now.
     
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  24. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We are all going to the same place.

    I’m not playing religion roulette. If there is a god, I’ve no idea which of the millions of versions of gods is right. I’m taking no chances, by just living my most authentic life. No point in pissing god off by guessing the wrong religion.

    who knows if the Baptists or Lutherans aren’t just making it worse, by not following the pope. And, ****, what if the Muslims are right?

    best way to win is not to play.
     
  25. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If scripture is taken literally, then we're damned from the moment we sin (murder, bear false witness, etc) to the moment we accept forgiveness for sinning.

    I don't take scripture literally. It seems to me we get to choose whether we spend eternity with God (accept forgiveness and go to heaven) or void of God (reject firgiveness and go to hell). This is because we have free will. God cannot force us to spend eternity with Him. If we have free will, there must be an alternative that we can choose.

    But I also believe this is merely God's backup plan for if we humans fail in our purpose to advance spiritually, morally and technologically to the point where we match or surpass our Creator in ability and build heaven (or hell...) ourselves. For what father doesnt wish to be surpassed by his children?
     

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