This was arguably the greatest theological debate of the 16th Century. If you're interested you can read more about it here - I just cross-linked it to your thread: Erasmus and Luther, Free vs. Unfree Will http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/erasmus-and-luther-free-vs-unfree-will.593173/
Contrary to your supposition .. All Protestant doctrine on salvation does in fact claim "That it doesn't help at all" .. "Literally" This is the point of "Sola Fide" - "Salvation by Faith Alone" Nor does the other side Catholic and Orthodox .. from a doctrinal perspective . believe that works by themselves can earn salvation .. to add some color .. along the spectrum. One of the ideas in Pauline inspired rantings (notice I am not blaming Paul for the ranting) .. is the concept of Grace .. that there is nothing one can do to achieve salvation .. it is simply a gift from God .. cause God is a nice fellow .. and the problems with this are many .. but back to "That doesn't help at all" So Yes .. Protestant doctrine is that works do not help you get through the pearly gates .. FULL STOP ... the Definition of SOLA Fide aka "Faith Alone" doctrine .. the title of which should be of some assistance in your quest for enlightenment.
True. I would add, though that Matthew quotes Jesus as stating that his followers will be damned to eternal hell along with Satan if they fail in the "works" category. This is in Matthew 25:31 to end. So, one can not work there way to heaven. BUT, being damned to hell is stated by Jesus as the penalty for not searching out and providing for the needs of those in poverty, in hospitals, in prisons. And, that applies to his followers. I think it's pretty clear that by categorizing "works" as not sufficient, followers of the New Testament are ignoring that "works" absolutely ARE required - according to Jesus.
Correct that Jesus states works are a requirement .. not sure how this adds to what I have said though .. other than to support the works requirement of Catholic Orthodox doctrine Never said one can not work their way into heaven though .. and frankly .. your quote from Jesus seems to suggest otherwise. .. as does the Sermon on the Mount but,, if one does claim "Works" and something else .. the "Something else" is problematic .. "Faith in What" Agreed that the man made doctrine of Martin Luther is bunk ... as is his other book "On the Jews and Their Lies" Talk about wolf in sheeps clothing Think we could turn Matt 7 .. when Jesus is talking about these wolves .. into "Prophecy" a warning against the Martin Luther's of the world ... claiming "God is here .. God is there" .. " I tell you .. I have been with you all along"
The widespread protestant doctrine doesn't even really make logical sense when you think about it, and many protestants don't really believe this, and there are different interpretations of the doctrine. It can be a little bit a matter of semantics. Even most protestants who hold this doctrine still believe that "faith without works is dead".
Doctrine is what it is .. and as far as the average joe goes .. most never heard the term "Sola Fide" .. never mind pondered its meaning much .. Preachers mostly focus on the Grace narrative.
I don't think any preacher will tell you you can go to heaven through grace if you continue going around murdering people. If you asked them specifically, they would probably qualify their prior message about grace.
The Jesus character was the ultimate free-loader. He was always barging in on his rich buddies and bunking with them. If he needed a ride he would tell his flunkies to go steal a donkey for him. He never gave anyone anything of material value. Even the Bible says that you should never trust such a person.
Just for the record, I do not see it this way at all. The story of the life of Jesus is a story of service to others. He walked the walk.
You’re describing a Calvinist theology with which, as an Arminianism Christian, I do not agree. Yes, we are all born imperfect creatures prone to sin, but we have a way to get right with God, through Christ. He has given us the example of a life of loving God through humility, service, and sacrifice. As for the final question of eternity, I’m content with that being God’s will...He is sovereign over the universe.
Cite one verse where the Jesus character personally ever gave anyone anything of material value. He was all words, spit, and touch.
Bringing a dead Lazarus back to life is not of material value? Turning a few fish and loaves of bread into an abundance of food to feed thousands is not of material value? If you think Jesus offered nothing of material value you don’t understand the Gospels.
Whatever happened to Lazarus? If he was still alive you might have a point. The story about the fish and bread is about hospitality. The Apostles brought their own lunch and so did the crowds. The custom was that you had to offer the people around you food before you started eating. Remember Sodom? Since there were so many people no one wanted to be the first to share his food. Jesus then had his apostles walk out into the crowd with their skimpy lunch and then, when the crowd saw what was happening, they started to bring out their own. In a few minutes everyone had produced their lunches from under their dusty robes and they all had a good laugh. A lot was left over because it was probably spoiled. The two stories about the loaves and fish is also related to the crowd at the sermon on the mount. The combine to illustrate the 7th Commandment = Exodus 34;23 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Exodus 34:23 and part of the 4th Commandment = Exodus 34:20 (ERV) = 20 If you want to keep a donkey that is the first born, then you can buy it with a lamb. But if you don’t buy that donkey with a lamb, you must break the donkey’s neck. You must buy back all of your firstborn sons from me. No one should come before me without a gift. Remember, ALL of the biblical stories illustrate one or more of the real Ten Commandments found in Exodus 34:11-28. The miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. Consequently, if you don't know that none of the stories will make sense.
Are you assuming Lazarus was not alive after being raised from the dead? My Christian belief is that he was alive, but what he did after wasn’t central to John’s Gospel. Eastern Orthodox, I understand, believe Lazarus left Israel, went to Cyprus and became a Christian Bishop. For me it just wasn’t important to the Gospels, which after all are not intended to be an exhaustive history.
It is possible to put all kinds of spins on it but your opinion is not supported by any passages in the Bible.
You sound certain. Then you should have no trouble telling me precisely what of my opinion is not supported by passages in the Bible.
I didn’t say that was my opinion, I said I understood that was the belief of Easter Orthodox Christians. I’m not Eastern Orthodox.
When expressing your opinion it is best to isolate it from others' opinions that compromise yours. In Post #40 you said that your Christian belief is that Lazarus was alive but that what he did later was not central to John’s Gospel. That is good and expresses your opinion. However, you clouded it by including in the same paragraph the Eastern Orthodox belief that Lazarus left Israel, went to Cyprus and became a Christian Bishop. That inadvertently tied your opinion to the Eastern Orthodox belief. So what you did was to give a supporting basis for your belief that Lazarus was alive, even if you disagree with the Eastern Orthodox belief about Lazarus becoming a Christian bishop in Cyprus. Here is your comment: Here is a suggested edit: Are you assuming Lazarus was not alive after being raised from the dead? My Christian belief is that he was alive, but what he did after wasn’t central to John’s Gospel. The Eastern Orthodox, I understand, believe Lazarus left Israel, went to Cyprus and became a Christian Bishop. For me it just wasn’t important to the Gospels, which after all are not intended to be an exhaustive history. BTW, I’m not Eastern Orthodox. One last point, there were no Christians when the Jesus character was alive. So, if Lazarus was alive in Cyprus as a Christian bishop he would have had to have been converted after Saul (named Paul after Acts 13:9) and Barnabas spent a whole year in Antioch establishing Christianity. edit typo
I don’t understand Eastern Orthodox theology well, but I’m pretty sure Lazarus would have been made Bishop long after arriving in Cyprus.
IMO, the story tellers dropped the ball when they didn't give Lazarus more screen time. It is like when the zombies went to Jerusalem after Jesus's resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53. That should have made all of the newspapers from Spain to India.
