Custody argument results in Texas man being shot to death, lawyer claims it was self-defense

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Same Issues, Dec 1, 2021.

  1. Same Issues

    Same Issues Well-Known Member

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    Link from shooters attorney with alternate video and angle. Once again the words are edited for language, but the lawyer does state the father threatened to take the gun.

    I am not sure where that leaves my opinion, if he only threatened to take the gun and not use it on the shooter it would not be considered a threat to the shooters life.

     
  2. Same Issues

    Same Issues Well-Known Member

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    All that depends on what the jury thinks and how good the lawyers make their argument, it could be perceived as a warning shot from the shooter, or could be perceived as a threat/provocation that warranted the Father trying to disarm the shooter.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But do you really feel like either of those would have made a big enough difference in this situation?

    There are other bigger factors that far outweigh this.

    I just don't believe you are viewing this in proper perspective.

    A warning shot should not really have changed the situation. And firing the gun near his feet would not have been a big enough provocation to attempt to grab the gun, which would have been pointless.

    Good thing I'm not on a jury. I think I would lose it with impatience at people like you. (Even though we probably ultimately do not disagree on the final outcome)
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oof... when morons collide.

    'Get off my property' is the end of the argument as far as I'm concerned. Thats when you take the video to court and show that your ex isn't complying with the custody arrangements ...not hang out on the porch yelling and threatening.

    That being said, I don't think any jury is going to agree that the shooter was reasonable in fearing for his life. I think he's gonna go to prison. I'm not sure if I think he should go to prison, but I think he will.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
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  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, I thought you were talking about forum members there for a moment. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He was in fear of losing his control, his rightful control (or maybe not entirely rightful if it was knowingly in violation of the court order. I wonder if that issue would matter here?)

    He probably would not die, but the other man might beat him up or physically harm him if he did not maintain control of that gun, potentially.

    Does using deadly force have to hinge entirely on fear of loss of life? Can't it depend on other things in some situations?

    (Like if I'm trying to steal something extremely valuable from you, and you know that I will definitely not kill you but I come up to you trying to pull the gun out of your hands so that you will not be able to stop me from stealing the very valuable thing)

    That being said, at that point in the video, he was definitely not in a situation of losing immediate control, so you still end up being right. I just wanted to clarify what the reason was not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, that's really questionable.

    There was too much distance at that point for him to be posing "an immediate threat".
    Yes, he was very in all probability going to come up to that man and do what he had just done again, but the other man should have waited until he had done it. The victim deserves the benefit of the doubt that he would not have repeated his actions again.

    Oh isn't that some interesting logic? It's totally reasonable for us all to expect the victim would have put himself in a situation a few seconds later where deadly force against him would have been justified, but he had not done so.

    This is a total hypothetical, but imagine the man had had an opportunity to shoot before when the other man was pulling his gun away, but did not. Would that greatly change things in this situation? My mind almost can't even grasp the legal ethics of that situation. In that case it would almost be like he would be legally punished for killing too late. Does that even make sense to have him punished in that situation?

    It would be like if person A was carrying out a robbery against person B. Person A begins pulling out a gun but person B pulls out their gun first, but does not shoot person A, even though person A continues to pull out their gun all the way and point it at person B. But then person A fumbles and the gun slips out of their hand and drops to the ground. Then after that person B shoots them. Person B decided to spare person A's life when they could have killed them, but then just a short moment later decides to kill them when they don't need to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  8. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

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    this was reviewed and found no arrest needed.
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, but you can't shoot someone for verbally threatening to take your gun. Even if they literally tried to pry the gun out of your hands just a few moments before.

    In my opinion, a self defense claim cannot be justified until the man is moving (especially if running) towards you and is very close.

    The man who was killed should have been entitled to the benefit of the doubt at that point that he might not come close and try to take the gun again.

    But this is not an entirely black and white thing and this is a little bit of an unusual situation, which is why I think there should be less punishment.
    The man who was killed very likely would have put himself in a situation where it would have been justifiable to shoot him, had he been given a few more moments of time.

    Also, even if the man (shooter) had maybe at least decided to try to make a non-fatal shot, he could have at least claimed he was trying to spare the other man from having to be killed later. But that is not what happened.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  10. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I'm not familiar with laws in Texas but, typically, one can't claim self-defense if they were not in fear of losing their life.

    However, depending on why he was there (trying to pick up his kids and she refused or he just came over to argue with her about whatever). The *intent* of the visit will have to be factored in.

    And, since more than one person recorded the confrontation, his lawyer and presiding judge will have more information than what is typical in these kinds of cases.

    I didn't watch the video(s) so I'm not sure if it is clear or not, but the judge will also factor in the joint kids' ages and/or if they were present when their father was killed. There will already be trauma just because their father is dead, but depending on their relationship with their mom's boyfriend prior to this shooting and whatever she does to help them stabilize and find some peace will also be taken into account.
     
  11. balancing act

    balancing act Well-Known Member

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    Was anyone else surprised at the immediate reaction from the people in the video? Evidently the woman who's voice appears later in the video is at least friends with the victim, who falls immediately and lies motionless on the porch. No one seems to administer any help, but they sort of calmly keep arguing. I would have gotten rushed and see if his life could be saved. Just weird, but I wasn't there.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you can claim self defense if the other person is trying to take away your gun, and the situation is such that you might either lose control over what you are protecting, or you fear the person may then use that gun against you or others.

    (This of course presumes you are not using the gun in a blatantly irresponsible way in the first place, giving the other person reasonable grounds to believe you may likely do something bad)

    What makes this case complicated is that the other man had already tried to take away the gun. But he was not exactly doing that during the moment he was shot.

    But in any case, the man who shot him was not really in a position to be able to shoot when the other man suddenly tried to take his gun, so I don't even think it's fair to say he had the legal opportunity to before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  13. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Which is a pretty dumb thing to do in Texas, though?
     
  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    looks like murder to me

    but with stand your ground laws, who knows
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I get him being upset, if he was supposed to pick up is child per the courts, and she refused, he should have kept cool, recorded it and the courts may have gave him custody

    but that did not justify the killing, you can't deny someone their child and when they get upset, shoot them
     
  16. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  17. GrayMan

    GrayMan Well-Known Member

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    Intelligence didn't seem to be in eithers favor that day.
     
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  18. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    He was wrestling for the gun. He must certainly was. I don't think it's a bright idea for someone to get a gun and wave it around a minute slingly or fire a warning shot. But just because someone does something that was stupid doesn't mean they deserve to have their gun taken away from them and then shot with it.
     
  19. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    disagree. The father didn't retreat he threatened to take the gun from him tried to take the gun from him and the boyfriend was running backwards and shot the man. I think it was stupid of him to bring a gun into it but he did.

    It was clear that in that instant the man that was shot was trying to take it away from him and can someone else shoot you with a gun if they take it away from you?

    If you wouldn't leave that's enough to get the gun out.
     
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  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let's clarify this. The man had just tried to take away the gun, seconds before. But in that moment - the moment when the man was actually shot - he was not actually physically trying to take the gun.

    That is what makes this case a little complicated.

    I totally agree that if he was actually running towards the man with the gun or trying to take the gun, at that same moment he was shot, it would have definitely been self defense, but that is not exactly what happened.

    Now would that man have come back and tried to take the gun again if he had not been shot at that moment? Very likely yes. But under the law he still deserves the benefit of the doubt, and for us to assume that he would not have done it a second time.

    But this is not absolutely totally irrelevant (in my opinion) because I think that should be factored into the shooter having a more lenient punishment. If the shooter had just waited a few more seconds, he probably would have been able to legally shoot, and the victim would still be dead.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is not always true. It depends what legal jurisdiction you are in. If another person is on your property and doing something that can be perceived as threatening, it is not unreasonable (in some jurisdictions) to hold a gun in an intimidating manner. This is especially true in Mountain West states in the more rural areas.

    (In fact I believe this is the case in most areas of the US, but not necessarily in most areas where the majority of the people actually live)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  22. Same Issues

    Same Issues Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the only argument that is in favor of the dead man. He was not in commission of a felony, and a warning shot was fired. Warning shots are not legally recognized and could lead the man who was shot to be in fear of his life, thus giving him the right to defend himself and try to disarm a deadly threat as he was not committing a felony at the time.

    But any ways the case has been picked up for review by the state attorney general as there are local conflicts of interest as the shooter was married to a local judge.
     
  23. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    so the fact that he did it once means he's a threat. What he should have done when the gun came out was walk away
    The fact that he put his hands on the gun means that it's self-defense. The next time he tries to take that gun away he could succeed he shouldn't have touched it.
     
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  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    It's all around a **** show and both of these guys acted like idiots.

    If it were me I wouldn't have brought the gun out.
     
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  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, but his hands weren't on the gun at that exact time.

    Yes, but you can't shoot someone because you expect them to get into a position where they will be able to do something that will be threatening. That man should have waited. He could have still shot if the man came forward at him again.


    Look, you know I was mostly against the Arbery verdict. So you know I'm definitely not one of those people who are against the concept of self defense.
    But what happened here was much closer to a murder than what happened in the Arbery case.
    In fact I will even say that it is a murder. (Even though I think the punishment should be far less than an ordinary murder)

    Look, I'm really happy that you are totally enthusiastic about the concept of the right to self defense, but there's such a thing as taking a good thing too far to an extreme.
    These situations are not always "all or nothing", as much as many people would prefer things to be simple.

    Regardless of what you think, I can pretty much guarantee you this man is going to be convicted of something for the killing. I just hope it is not treated like an ordinary murder. Most likely the prosecutor will offer him some plea deal, which he had better take, otherwise they won't show him any mercy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022

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