Careful! They are coming for your freedom and next your life!

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Darthcervantes, Jan 11, 2022.

  1. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    So Germany didn't need the USA to perform one of the most difficult political and social jobs of the 20th century. nor to "wipe their arses for them."
     
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  2. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Partially that, yes, and also because Americans were sick of the autocratic rule of creatures like 'pen-and-phone' Barack Obama, and the sickening Socialism-lite that surely would have continued full-force under Hillary Clinton.

    Trump temporarily stopped the radical Democrat Party's eight-year-long ruination of the country, but didn't materially change things to "make America great again"!

    And, after another four years, at least, of Leftist-'wokeness' under Geriatric Joe and Comrade Kamala, it is highly unlikely that the U.S. ever will be 'great again'....
     
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  3. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I never said that we did....
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  4. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Darthcervantes did:

    Darthcervantes said:
    it worked so well they need America to fight their battles? We might as well be wiping there arses for them too

    I get a tad defensive when Americans think Europeans rely on the US.
     
  5. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I have known Darth to be a fine fellow and like-minded in a number of respects, but I'm sure that he and I don't agree on everything.

    What many Americans may fail to appreciate is that, in all likelihood, the Russian Federation doesn't want to have hostility and antagonism with, or against, anyone in 'Western' Europe! Indeed, under Putin, Russia has embarked on a sort of nationalistic, 'Neo-Capitalism' which depends on mutually-beneficial commerce with the EU -- particularly Germany, France, Italy, and the Scandinavian countries. Putin and the Russian 'oligarchs' (and their apparatchiks) want the EU's business -- not some 'Stalinist' fantasy out of the 1930's....

    It's hard for many Americans to see that 'side' of Vladimir Putin, however... and few of us over here even know that the man has a Ph.D. in Economics. :eekeyes: -- "Yer kiddin' me... right...?"
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I sure hope you're not suggesting that other religions DON'T do that. Because you left out a whole bunch of dictatorial religions, in your castigation of what is probably the least dictatorial known to humanity. Even Buddhism has the twelve precepts - most of which are pretty freaking difficult to adhere to.
     
  7. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea why you couched your enquiry this way, but I'll do my best:

    Leftist Govts (globally) are accelerating dependence, by dismantling the power structures of the people. Those who allow it will necessarily be 'victims'. They will be the dependents, obviously. That means every individual who sacrifices their own power structures (family, property, community, stability, etc), or who joins the rabble in decrying those structures.

    The 'rulers' are the elite who control the global Left. They manipulate the Right too, but the Right isn't do their bidding as quickly - so they're not the favoured politic at this juncture.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    When you sell the idea that the people don't need to rely on family/community for their survival, you're basically dismantling people power. Strength in number, and all that. We've been taught that we can go it alone, because Govt has promised to do what our family and community would have done - feed and house us in an emergency.

    We're social mammals hardwired for community, but we've been taught to dislike same. We've been taught that the things required for community (compromise, conformity, obligation, investment in place, stability etc) are bad. We've been taught that our freedom to avoid those things is crucial - and we had the hubris to believe it because, after all ... Govt will save us. We were taught to turn away from each other, just so that we can avoid ever having to take responsibility for one another. We've had our thinking shaped to that of the rich man - the rich man who can afford to abandon the things that give the poor man strength, and become an island. We think that way now - that we're too special to have to do any of that icky peasant stuff like sacrifice our own personal wants and impulses in favour of the group.

    And it's all deliberate. It can't be otherwise, because even a child isn't stupid enough to think there would be no consequences.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
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  9. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    I've never watched OANN, but I find actions like this chilling towards free expression, especiaaly since the pressure came from a liberal organization and liberals ordinarily defend free expression:
     
  10. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    " Liberals ordinarily defend free expression"

    LOL they're the authors of the cancel culture :roflol:

    Maybe that was true historically but it hasn't been for a long time now.
     
  11. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    I found this interesting and wanted to give it the time it deserves.
    First I should define some terms.
    Left to me means community (as in small groups/communes working together to achieve something, from existence to global influence...ie Jesus and his disciples ). It implies equality and mutual respect. It could be within a family, a village, or a company . Probably not a government since that requires opposition and complexity.
    It implies th at if a member of a community needs help, the community gives help. The community becomes a sort of "greater family".
    Right to me means "every man for himself". Behaving as an individual allows freedom, loss of restraints necessary to community welfare, and as little central control as possible.

    If you don't agree, please stop me here.

    I agree with your definition of support groups and the elements of stability. I would think anyone would unless you are living in the novel 1984. And I agree that the state is supposed to protect these in whatever generally agreed set of parameters are desired by the voting public.

    Where I have trouble with your reply is that, given my definition of the left, that it is eroding those elements you identify.
    If the left is supportive of "community" then how does it challenge your family or social group? Community is supposed to help each other (as you suggested I think) so what has the left offered that militates against that? OK maybe the left asks you to consider other small groups and chip in for a wider mutual benefit while you want to operate within a smaller cell but the degree to which this "borderline" is set IMO hardly destroys your support systems.
    At this juncture, please don't reply with facile unsupported party political propaganda. I assume you are above this which is why I want to reply to you.

    I cannot see where the left is encouraging you to go it alone. Surely it is the right who tells you that independence brings progress and development. To decouple you from the state. To care not for the general good but for yourself. Sure,
    You say " Govt has promised to do what our family and community would have done - feed and house us in an emergency." but what do you say to those who through no fault of their own, just can't? Through no fault of my own, I have no family (other than one person and the same applies to him). I have no children. Any distant family I have is in another country. Do I not merit some support I have paid for through my taxes if I need help?
    You say:

    We've been taught that the things required for community (compromise, conformity, obligation, investment in place, stability etc) are bad.

    I disagree. The left is all about compromise (for the sake of the general good), as is obligation to that community. The left encourages you to think for yourself and not "conform" ...become a hive mind. Of course conformity reduces personal security and encourages you to be more creative but is this so frightening?

    Finally you say:
    We think that way now - that we're too special to have to do any of that icky peasant stuff like sacrifice our own personal wants and impulses in favour of the group.
    But you have just said you WANT to sacrifice yourself for your group. That the right encourage you to support your group in order to ensure stability and that the left destroy that stability by encouraging you to detach yourself from the group. I see some contradiction here . Can you explain it?

    I do however note that you have thought about such issues instead of merely buying the patter, but have to question some of your conclusions.
     
  12. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Or perhaps.... The handwriting on the wall, obvious to those who aren't blinded by the charade of leftism....
    If it was paranoia.... where do the facts proving it true come from? Why does they continue to surface unabated?
     
  13. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    In a real, down-to-earth sense, it is our evolved technologies that have enabled people to rely on 'tribal', 'community-oriented' models for both survival and advancement far less than in previous eras.

    I'll suggest one example: the very popular TV series, "Downton Abbey". There you see a hierarchical 'community' of people in a societal microcosm which interacts to produce a 'norm' necessary for the survival and advancement of all -- from the lowliest kitchen scullion up to, and including, Lord Grantham, himself. But, consider the societal dynamic shown through episode after episode -- fewer and fewer people are needed to perform a wider and wider variety of tasks in order for the entire enterprise to operate the entire enterprise in a more efficient, profitable, and enjoyable fashion!

    Now, without belaboring it overly, what we see thereafter is the emergence of the model suggested in Orwell's, "1984"! The Crawley family are the "Inner Party Members"; those characters that are still required to support the Crawley 'infrastructure' are Orwell's "Outer Party Members", and then, there are the ejected, dispossessed "Proles"... the extra, unnecessary people who are removed from the 'payroll' because they serve no useful, essential function.

    Orwell describes a solution that involves government putting this vast mass of "Proles" on subsistence-welfare programs, while controlling them very watchfully with ubiquitous policing methodologies which enforce the constantly-changing behavior-orthodoxy required to maintain power and prerogative for -- guess who -- those same "Inner Party Members"....

    *** Personal observation from my days in one of two Fortune 50 Prime Contractors I made my careers with: All during the 1990's, and early 2000's, as we watched layoff after layoff, forced 'retirements', and other 'cost-saving' actions by corporate headquarters, we lower and mid-level managers mused sarcastically that if our sector's vice-president could actually do it, he'd run the whole enterprise from one (ONE) computer console -- the one belonging to his personal secretary. Think of the payroll savings! Think of how that could ingratiate him to all the stockholders! The ultimate corporate 'wet-dream'.... ***

    I'll close by recommending that as we discuss these paradigms, we take a moment and reflect on a foundational exposition written Abraham Maslow: https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html . BUT, in 1943, not even Maslow could possibly have understood the power of technology to concentrate sheer functionality in the hands of relatively few individuals, while leaving 'the unwashed masses' with little or nothing to do but to apply for government welfare benefits....
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  14. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I'll have to be quick, as I'm about to enter a long zoom meeting on the current situation in our public hospitals (yes, it's bad).

    Just wanted to reiterate that I'm a LEFTIST. This isn't about my politics, at all. Will elaborate on all my points a bit later, when I can escape the zoom doom.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Okay, they're running late. So ...

    The Left has dismantled the structures of people power by claiming to replace families/communities (with Welfare). Since families/communities have always been our security in the past, this is a significant alteration to social behaviour - and it's left us horribly disempowered and dependent. We are no longer capable of joining forces (being far too 'spoiled' to endure the compromises and obligations of sharing) for our own security - choosing instead to be ogligation free.

    Since we know that family/community can only arise in a context of familiarity and TRUST, and can only endure when all members conform to an agreed standard of behaviour, ethics, culture, and morality - the demonisation of that behavioural obligation means that communities cannot arise or endure. Again, this is by design.

    It's very important to remember that 'community' is NOT people who just happen to live in the same location. A community is a function of relationships built upon familiarity, stability, and trust. It cannot be created artificially. The dismantling of community by the Left means that people become isolated from each other, and become very much 'every man for himself'.

    As for your personal situation .. not really relevant is it. We all make our choices. I choose not to be in that situation, so I have built my life differently. No nation on earth is so rich that it can afford to patch up every regretted choice made by every human being.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  16. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I'll stop you there. You have a very unrealistic and naively binary veiw of the left and the right.

    You portray the left as these generous paragons of virtue and the right as these greedy and selfish people who only consider themselves.

    You liken the left the Jesus' apostles.

    You have people on the left like Maxine Waters calling for the public mob harassment of all the elected officials on the other side does that sound like equality and mutual respect to you?

    You have people on the left like Nancy pelosi saying I don't know why there is not more uprisings and maybe there will be..... Does that sound very tolerant to you?

    Is abject hypocrisy part of jesus's teachings and did his disciples display this?

    There's a lack of tolerance for people with different ideas and the quickness to shun them and insult them is that something that Jesus would have taught?

    Just right here on this forum I've witnessed many people on the left calling for a wishing for the death of those who choose not to take a vaccine.

    Tell me which of Jesus's apostles do you imagine would have called for such a thing?

    Now I won't pretend it doesn't go both ways because that would be extremely hypocritical but you can see the venom that flows freely on this form every day from each side and if you're going to deny that and tell me the left is somehow more christ-like well you can go sell that story to someone else
     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately there's a huge proportion of them who are driven by fear to hold on to the fantasy. Since they're part of the demographic who've allowed themselves to be disenfranchised (believing the propaganda that they don't need family/community), they're now stuck. Can you imagine that fear? Even when you know it's wrong, if you see the Left as your only means of survival, you're going to keep holding on tight no matter what.
     
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  18. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ok, so a small invisible cabal. I was going to look out for them in my neighbourhood, but they probably live on an island somewhere?

    How many individuals are you talking about? A dozen, a couple hundred? Can you name any?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to assume you're not silly enough to believe in noble independence in partisan politics - because that would be even sillier than thinking it's about secret societies of invisible evil gazillionaires.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  20. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    I was serious.

    I'd like detailed demographics of this group and wouldn't mind some names.
     
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    What 'groups'? Are you referring to big business? Are you looking for the names of the board members of every large corporation? I'm sure you can find them on company websites, if it's that important to you.

    Otherwise your question doesn't make much sense. Pretty sure you know that big business is behind 21stC politics. I hope you're not asking because you actually regard political parties are proxy religious outfits - acting purely according to some noble ethic, no matter what it costs both in the immediate fiscal sense, and in the long term harm sense.
     
  22. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm actually asking who you are referring to. Pure listening and information gathering at this stage.

    It sounds like you mean executives of big business and large corporations? Are these executives orchestrating together (in communication) with other big business and large corporations to *"shape society and politics" or are they acting independently and competitively against each other?

    *My paraphrase
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I really have no idea what you're asking, sorry.

    Money (and therefore power) is behind Western Politics. You can't be naive enough to believe that isn't true, so I'm assuming that's not what you mean.
     
  24. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh, ok, let me clarify exactly what I meant. You said:

    "The 'rulers' are the elite who control the global Left."

    I was wondering many individuals are you talking about? A dozen, a couple hundred? Can you name any? Any particular corporations or entities
    that come to mind Just a rough idea. And if you don't know, that's fine you can just say that.
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Can I ask what you think motivates the Western body politic to disempower the working and middle classes? Are you assuming it's for some pleasant philosophical reason? Or perhaps a social experiment?
     

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