Is there proof to show higher survival rate in hospitalized vaxxed covid victims VS non-vaxxed?

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by Darthcervantes, Jan 10, 2022.

PF does not allow misinformation. However, please note that posts could occasionally contain content in violation of our policies prior to our staff intervening. We urge you to seek reliable alternate sources to verify information you read in this forum.

  1. clennan

    clennan Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Please cease and desist with the "totalitarian" nonsense. If you've got a point to make, just make it. It will stand or fall on it's own merits, no ad hominems required.

    This thread is about overall death rates. If you want to drill down and talk about the lower risk for those who are healthy, younger, etc., that's fine. But it's utterly pointless - it goes without saying that certain people are at lower risk. (Whether or not they should nonetheless get vaccinated is another topic altogether.)

    It's also completely pointless because the existence of people who are healthier than most - present in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations - is already factored into overall hospitalization and death rates. They are factored in by their absence or by their presence in cases where despite any apparent advantages they have still ended up in hospital or dead. In short, and again, the rates are an apples-to-apples comparison.

    And, these rates make it quite clear that vaccination has a positive impact. Now, you can exclude your healthy Group A from the overall population if you like - despite the fact that it's utterly unnecessary for the reasons stated above - but this does not change the fact so far as everyone else is concerned - vaccinated and unvaccinated - it is the unvaccinated who end up hospitalized or dead at much higher rates than the vaccinated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,708
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No need to take it personally - but if one is on the Biden Fauci propaganda train - then totalitarianism on the basis of fallacious utilitarianism definitely applies.. complete with forced medical treatment
    .
    Who said it wasn't ? speaking of "Pointless" ..

    Pointless to you perhaps .. but you don't seem to have one. The claim that the "Unvaxed" - as a whole - are responsible for high hospitalization - ICU- Death .. is being used to implement these totalitarian mandates .. but this claim is false .. and analysis of who is actually dying .. proves this claim false.

    Has a positive impact for those in Group B .. and these folks should take the vax .. as I have stated numerous times.. risk of harm from covid greater than risk of harm from the vax. Which is not the case for those in Group B.

    Obviously someone who lacks ability to produce antibodies .. is going to have a high probability of benefitting from a boost of antibodies induced by the vax.
     
  3. clennan

    clennan Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Oh my.

    The populations - vaxxed and unvaxxed - are the same in terms of age, health status, etc. Thus, both populations have segments of people who never end up in hospital or dead. Because of this they are not included in the rates, at all. So, in terms of comparing rates they are a non-issue.

    Of the people who DO end up in hospital or dead - which is what this thread is about - hospitalization and death rates are much higher for the unvaccinated. And, it's these people who most certainly ruffle feathers because they impose an unnecessary and avoidable burden on healthcare, which impacts everyone.

    Now, if you feel that healthy unvaxxed people are being unfairly stigmatized even though they aren't part of the stats, or (per your calculations) a negligible part, I can't help that. That's your feeling. This thread isn't about your feelings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  4. AKS

    AKS Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    10,471
    Likes Received:
    4,755
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If each successive dominant strain is more contagious and less deadly what does that do to your hypothesis? To conclude that masks helped alleviate covid deaths is premature at best and quite possibly the height of niavete at worst.
     
    Eleuthera likes this.
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,708
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Didn't say otherwise .. so why did you post this ?
    This statement is false - fallacious generalization. as death rates are not much higher for all unvaxed .. just those in a certain group .. that you desperately are trying to lump together for some reason.

    1) healthy people ar part of the stats - but
    2) they are being unfaily stigmatized not because they arn't part of the stats .. they are being unfairly stigmatized becuase of the generalization fallacy you have been parroting .. the "Biden Fauci false narrative"
     
  6. clennan

    clennan Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sigh.

    If the question is, "What are the rates of death in the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations?" and the answer is 0.38 and 4.98, this answer is not a "generalization fallacy". It is the answer to the question asked - they are the rates for the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

    You, on the other hand, respond by talking about specific people - a sub-segment of these populations who (due to superior health status or whatever) will have a lower risk (rate) of death than the overall rates. Fine. Now, if these people haven't died, they are not part of the 0.38 or 4.98 at all. They are a non-issue in terms of death rates. If a very small or negligible number of them have died despite their advantages, they are a very small or negligible part of the 0.38 or 4.98. They are essentially a non-issue (though literally a dead issue).

    And this, really, is the basis of your complaint. That despite being a non-issue, or essentially a non-issue, in terms of death rates, these specific people, when unvaccinated, are being unfairly "demonized" because of the other 4.97 or 4.91 (or whatever you think it is), that have died.

    Cry me a river.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,708
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't blame me for your lack of understanding of statistics. 99.9% of folks dying from covid are in the high risk category. Your numbers refer to those folks .. not healthy individuals.
     
    ricmortis likes this.
  8. clennan

    clennan Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your entire entire argument is that unvaccinated healthy people who don't end up in "the numbers" are unfairly demonized because of those who do. If that's how you feel, and it makes you unhappy, I can't help that.
     
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,708
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes -- but not just unfairly demonized - forced medical treatment - job loss - freedom of movement restricted - .. on the basis of State Sponsored Propaganda - on the basis of this demonization.... Just tag em with a yellow star ... kind of demonization ..

    Its the State Sponsored lies and false narratives coupled with authoritarian Trampling on essential liberty .. of the "non complient group" on the basis these anti science - conflicted - xenophobic - germophobic morons.

    and I can't help you mate .. if you don't find that the least bit troubling .. on the Biden Fauci bandwagon I presume ?
     
    ricmortis likes this.
  10. clennan

    clennan Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    LOL and here you are complaining about demonization. Well, if it makes you feel better to tell yourself that people who disagree with you must be on some kind of bandwagon, go ahead.
     
  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,708
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not sure what bandwagon you are on .. was just a question .. do you deny it ? are you not on the Biden Fauci Bandwagon -- pr is it that you happen to like authoritarianism ..of a sort Adolf would admire ..

    What's you deal .. do tell..
     
  12. clennan

    clennan Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ah, doubling up on your flights of fancy? Whatever will you think of next.
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,708
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just curious . takes all kinds , if you don't want to stand for something -- no one is forcing you to get on the stage. Nihilsm perhaps ? Just a guess :)
     
  14. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,762
    Likes Received:
    14,563
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Let me help you finish your post. A virus can't be killed because it isn't an organism. It doesn't live. Yes it mutates as the living cells reproduce and those mutations create new strains, some of which are more dangerous and some of which are less so. The more contagious the mutations are, the greater chance they have of succeeding in becoming a new strain. He got the basics right, just not the details. The important point is that we are responding to a moving target and we certainly are.
     
  15. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2011
    Messages:
    25,730
    Likes Received:
    8,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    But there were several things wrong, no basics were right:

    "If the vaccine doesn't kill the virus" A vaccine never kills a virus, the vaccine causes the body to produce antibodies that will target the vaccine which has structures similar to those in the virus, hence the antibodies will target the virus if also encountered. And yes, a virus can't be killed as it isn't an organism but I wasn't even going there :)

    "it's just going to learn" The virus does not learn, it's not capable of learning

    "and replicate into another variant" All mutations are completely random, it does not replicate into another variant in order to evade antibodies ie evolution does not occur in viruses in the way commonly defined

    " that is much stronger" Mutations are completely random. There is no such thing as a stronger variant. The variant can do more harm, less harm or become unviable .

    "Did we learn nothing from over prescribing anti-biotic's?" Anti-biotics are completely unrelated to vaccines. Bacteria are completely different to viruses
     
  16. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    94,819
    Likes Received:
    15,788
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I got the same thing from your post.
     
  17. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    22,694
    Likes Received:
    11,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why is it accepted knowledge that virus can be 'killed' by high temperatures and sunlight? Why can one cease to exist in the presence of both?
     
  18. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,762
    Likes Received:
    14,563
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A virus is not an organism. It is not alive. It appears nowhere in the taxonomical tables of living things. It doesn't do anything and it doesn't reproduce itself. It is a DNA or RNA string encased in a protein. If it comes into contact with a living cell, that cell draws off that DNA or RNA and reproduces it.

    Could its DNA or RNA be destroyed or damaged by high temperature or sunlight? I suppose so. There are probably many things that can damage it. I don't know. But I do know that it is not an organism. No doubt about that at all. If it interests you go learn a little taxonomy. It is the classification of living things that starts with "kingdoms" like plants, animals, fungi, bacteria etc etc. Not a single virus anywhere.
     
  19. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    11,335
    Likes Received:
    11,469
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Is there proof to show higher survival rate in hospitalized vaxxed covid victims VS non-vaxxed ?

    ~ No. It likely will never be known for certain as reports/record keeping are suspect.
    ---
    By Daniel Avis
    January 17, 2022, 10:21 PM PST
    • A fourth dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was insufficient to prevent infection with the omicron variant of Covid-19, according to preliminary data from a trial in Israel released Monday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022

Share This Page