What is the comprehensive cost of freedom?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by robini123, Jan 20, 2022.

  1. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Trusting one’s gut all too often leads to inaccurate assumptions. For this reason I place little value in what my gut tells me. Too often it has been wrong. I am a white middle aged college education man. Was a staunch conservative for most of my life, independent today with no loyalty to the left or right. Leaves me in an advantageous position to take a critical look at the pros and cons of political ideologies without being bound by a preference to one or the other.

    As for freedom, you make good points. Yet I still think that my freedom in part comes at the cost of others freedoms being suppressed. Should people be free to have a legal abortion? Those that say yes will say that those that say no are trying to oppress their freedom. Those that say no will say that those that say yes are denying developing human life the freedom to be born and live life. Whether one’s freedom is being infringed upon or not all depends who you ask. It is subjective.
     
  2. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would seem to me- that it's not that complicated. You don't need do suppress minority groups; you need to prevent them suppressing others.
    For example you are free to live in a commune or a cave if that suits you- but whatever you do, you must allow others to make their own choices. you don't get to control them, to live off them, or destroy things that don't belong to you. Go your own way, pay your own way, pay your share of community expenses (taxes) and mind your own business.....

    I think we have been diminished by allowing people to violate that without consequences.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
  3. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    The word minority is not synonymous with race. For example Conservatives in California are the minority. Their race is moot.

    Are liberals free to have an abortion in the redoubt? If they are there are many others working to make it so they can’t. That is at a minimum an attempt at suppression, just as the pro choice crowd wants to continue to suppress the pro life’s influence and power in order to maintain their current freedom to have an abortion.

    Sounds like the area you live in would suppress white hedonist like me. Where freedom is allowed for one group, it tends to come at the cost of the freedoms of another group. We can’t all be completely free thus the fight over freedoms. Those that hold the most power get to dictate what freedoms the rest of us have. They also suppressing opposition as they don’t like dissent or competition. Liberal or conservative… both do it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
  4. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

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    My suggestion is to regard your freedoms as responsibilities. When you look at it that way, you will realize that a freedom 'won' by the suppression of another is not freedom at all.
     
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  5. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thats where government is useful. Local government is there to preserve rights. I am not anti-government; I enjoy clean water, roads, bridges, and first responders. I live in California, where a bloated, irresponsible government has been worse for society. Even a freedom like the right to bear arms has been destroyed by politicians who enjoy the luxury of armed security.
     
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  6. dharbert

    dharbert Well-Known Member

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    "Any alleged 'right' of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, isn't and cannot be a right." - Ayn Rand
     
  7. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    We agree that group rights trump the individual. Yet the group with the most power dictates what freedoms all under the control of the group have. Powerful ideological groups keep their power by suppressing competition. This is one reason I say the freedom often comes at the expense of the freedom of another.
     
  8. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I could use liberal suppression of conservatives in California if the redoubt example does not work for you. Are the liberal policies going to fly in the redoubt? Of course not. The conservative majority will never allow it and the left lacks the power to force them. Liberalism is not welcomed with open arms in the redoubt any more than conservatism will be met with open arms in San Francisco. I say each does all they can to suppress the others influences from taking root in their respective areas. What would you say they are doing?

    Are Republicans or Democrats not suppress or oppressed when they are the minority? Are they every bit as free as the majority? I would say no.
     
  9. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    That works until one man says their rights have been infringed upon and the other man disagrees.
     
  10. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Preventing minority groups from suppressing others is suppression in and of itself. You listed some rules that will be viewed as suppression by those that disagree with them. In a perfect world your rules would work. But this is not a perfect world nor can we even agree upon what a perfect world would be. Without universally agreed upon rules there will always be those that feel oppressed.
     
  11. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    This is what I do. If it doesn't effect me in a negative way then you're all good. Do what you want. That goes for individuals or the government.

    The problem lies in getting OTHER people to act/believe in the same way. Too many people like sticking their noses into other peoples business. And that is where the problems end up being. Sometimes that is a good thing (police doing their job for example). Most of the time however it does nothing but cause strife.
     
  12. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised by the amount of push back on the idea that an ideological majority tends to suppress or oppress competing ideological minorities. Is there no suppression or oppression of political minorities in America? I sure hear many minorities on both sides say they are. If we agree that political minorities are sometimes suppressed or oppressed then the question becomes how can a suppressed or oppressed minority have the same freedoms as the majority?
     
  13. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    A problem with the concept of good or bad is that they are highly subjective and will be fought over. The victor will claim freedom while the looser will cry oppression.

    Do you ever stick your nose in others business? What is your business and what is my business? Where is the line in the sand drawn and who decides that? Do they decide it for themselves or everyone? Obviously much subjectivity in the questions. The subjectivity breeds the conflict we see. It is easy to be idealistic having hard and fast rules. Yet in the absence of universal agreement there will always be those that feel oppressed. That is essentially the point I am trying to make.
     
  14. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    By that measure none of us have freedom.
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    OK I finally get your point: Democracy is a threat to liberty.

    This sounds like a brand new concept to you. There may be some founding documents you may want to glance at it that would teach you that this tension between the two concepts is quite old and the founders were well aware of it, which is why we have checks and balances and restraints on power to keep majorities from crushing minorities.

    With the current "our democracy" hysteria, this may be an issue left out of the debate since the current "our democracy" trend is to remove all restraints on majority power, such as getting rid of the filibuster and as recently suggested, getting rid of the senate in order that the majority has no stop sticks in crushing the minority.

    Good luck in your studies.
     
  16. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Bold: Nope.

    Italics: Anything that affects you. For instance: Two guys down the road from me getting married does not affect me at all, as such I don't care. However, government mandating that I buy insurance from private companies does affect me.

    Underlined: I would note that there is a difference between "feeling oppressed" and "being oppressed". One is subjective. The other is not. One can "feel" oppressed but not actually be. For instance BLM feels oppressed because the news media highlights darn near every cop killing an unarmed black guy. But if you look at how many police interactions there are every year, which is in the double digits of millions, and then look at how many unarmed black men are actually shot....there is actually no oppression going on.

    One more thing to note: Just because someone or some group IS oppressed, doesn't actually mean that is a bad thing. For instance, catching a murderer and putting them behind bars is a good thing. Even though it technically oppresses that person. Same goes for groups. An example of that is those one camps which tried to force gay people to not be gay. (sorry, can't remember the name of them off the top of my head)

    In the end, it all leads to what I have already said. If it doesn't affect you (me), then do what you want.
     
  17. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the well wishes.

    Democracy is essentially mob rules. It is good to be the mob, but not so good for the minority.

    The checks and balances we have are adjudicated by the majority or those with the most power. Human nature is not egalitarian, it is tribal. The tribe with the most power will wield the authority of checks and balances in a predictable way. Simple observation of the impeachment of Clinton and Trump bear witness to this.

    Keeping majorities from crushing minorities? A review of the history of America shows just how much we suck at that. We have made progress sure, but too early to be celebrating victory over oppression. Not that you are though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
  18. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    First let me say that your use of bold, italics and underlined is a brilliant and novel way to categorize your response. Where did you come to learn that? It is very efficient.

    It is hard for me to find flaw in your arguments. Yet I am not convinced our freedom is not at the cost of another’s. Some conservatives I have listen to say they left California for Idaho to have freedom. This implies that they lacked it in California. Heck, my old man moved from western Oregon to Boise to escape it but now gripes about how Boise is too liberal. He sure comes across as feeling oppressed by liberalism. Perhaps they are as you said confusing actual oppression with simply feeling oppressed. Yet based upon dictionary definitions I would say that oppression seems to fit.
     
  19. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    So essentially the United States is a cult because it started out this way.

    So when do you think the mass suicide will be?
     
  20. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While it is true we can't agree on a perfect world- the idea that no individual has the right to control any life but their own is virtually fundamental and universal to anyone with any self-respect. If any believe that not allowing them to suppress others is unjust to them- they have a problem. Not those they object to- but themselves. You don't "fix" it for them by giving in, even a little, because that only makes it worse for them. If they are unhappy with not being given the right to control and abuse others, then they learn to live with it or pay the price such abuse will bring down on them in the long run. Feeling oppressed is a feeling- and that doesn't make it a fact. People often act on feelings that are not at all legitimate, but that is still their fault, their problem. When they try to make it mine, the rules change.

    I have a life view much like that of nature. If you don't hunt, you don't eat. Your problem. If you mess with the lives of others, they have not only the right but the obligation to make you strongly regret it. Also your problem. People learn change when negative consequences of bad decisions make an adequate impression.... but not from criticisms of their bad behavior.

    "No man is free who is not master of himself" Epictetus, Greek philosopher

    So long as you must control others to ease you insecurity- you will never be free.
     
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  21. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    An interesting perspective. I don’t entirely agree with it, but it does give me something to consider. Thanks for sharing your perspective with me.
     
  22. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    It's a tension to be managed, not a battle to be won. Or at least, I don't see what rules and procedures we can add to that to manage the tension better. If you have suggestions, I'd be curious, but right now, the Bill of Rights is a pretty good procedural protection of individual, and by extension, minority rights.

    Historically, we've done a pretty good job of managing "mob rule." Most of our violations of that were groups that were considered outside of our polity, and therefore not really considered as a minority to be protected (slaves and Indians come to mind).

    But all good things come to an end, and democracy historically turns into tyranny. Right now the "our democracy" crowd is hard at work trying to disable the previously mentioned stop sticks to unlimited majority rule. Eh, we had a good run.
     
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  23. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    Hummmm. So you're Pro Choice. I wouldn't have guessed that.
     
  24. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Yes, where is that balance when the exercise of one person's freedom impacts the rights of another, and abortion is a great example of that.

    Life News reported, "New Poll: 52% of Millennials Want Abortions Banned After Unborn Baby’s Heart Starts Beating."
     
  25. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Democracy says that if there are enough people who objet to the ideology of their government (in this case, state) they can vote it out.
    If there aren't enough people who object, then they either learn to live with it or move.
    and that is how freedoms are preserved.
     

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