maybe its time to go back to harsher penalties for horrible crimes?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Darthcervantes, May 16, 2022.

  1. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to argue with you about your feelings, except to point out one thing... What if you're wrong? What if you end up having nightmares about that one moment for the rest of your life? And more...

    That said, I'm not quite sure if I'm ready to tell a family member they can't. Only that it may not be a great idea, as killing another person, no matter how deserved, is the root of more PTSD cases than I can probably count.
     
  2. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    And they deserve to spend the rest of their life locked away from society where they can never do harm to innocent folks ever again.

    As long as our justice system is imperfect, and ours most certainly is, I can never support a permanent punishment for any crime.
     
  3. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I’ve been royally screwed four times in my life. The first two times my complaints went nowhere and I was left with my dick in my hand and no restitution at all. Knowing there would be no restitution the next two times….you know where this is going. I know it’s a character flaw, I once drove a woman nuts with my obsession. Let me ask you this: did someone ever kill your 16 old sister and get away with serving less than two years because the prosecutors just wanted the case to go away because the guy’s father was a connected big shot? That was the first time me and my family were screwed and justice went no where. When that guy got out of jail he would flip off my brothers and sisters when he saw them because they gave victim statements asking for the max. That guy still walks free, his family has money and he doesn’t have a problem in the world.
     
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  4. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Earlier I proposed an immediate death penalty when there is no doubt. I still stand by that proposal.
     
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  5. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a bad situation and I’m sorry you had to experience that. That said, I don’t know what you want me to do with this information. I feel like I’m being asked to argue with anecdotal experiences and feelings. Did you think this would convince me that the families of victims should get to beat offenders to death or something?

    Sorry, can’t support that. Empirical data suggests it doesn’t lead to positive outcomes.
     
  6. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    How would you legally codify a definition of “no doubt”?
     
  7. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think it’s an individual thing. Some folks may want to use a bat or others may want to flip the power on the electric chair. Others may want other people to do it, and still others forgive the people who hurt them. We are all different.
     
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  8. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No doubt could be described as it being impossible for anyone other than the accused to be guilty of the crime. If there is a video of a guy with red and green hair, crazy earrings, with unique face and body tattoos and there is video of him shooting the clerk, then he’s a candidate for the no doubt deal.
     
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  9. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    The punishments for a crime being wildly inconsistent could possibly be less conducive to preventing crime than punishments being overly harsh.

    Again these are arguments based on emotions and feels. I don’t see much value in saying your feelings are wrong, but I don’t see any other options here.

    Your feelings are empirically wrong.
     
  10. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    Again I ask, does the existence of and ever improving technology behind deep fakes give you any pause in making such prescriptions? A sufficiently talented artist could produce convincing evidence of you committing some pretty heinous acts. I can’t imagine you’d be satisfied with marching off to the gallows the day after your trial, right?
     
  11. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Certainly. That's always a risk, even with imprisonment.
     
  12. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    That’s certainly true. Innocent people can and have been imprisoned. When/if a mistake is realized a person can be let out of prison. Obviously we can’t give them back the years of their lives spent in prison, though I believe there should be sizable payments made to them by the state, but it is a whole lot better than posthumously exonerating a person that we have killed.
     
  13. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Innocent people will be victims in this, just like they become victims in other things too, like civil court cases or car accidents. Society can't grind everything to a halt because of it though. The death penalty is no different. The burden of proof for a death penalty case should be extremely high, but we should be recommending more people be put to death simply because they don't deserve to be here anymore. Yes, life in prison(as I'm always reminded) is supposed to be worse than death, but it isn't. People will adapt to life in prison and find little joys in it because that's how the human psyche works. Best to just be rid of them altogether, so they get nothing. Not even one more little joy in their life.
     
  14. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree.or by conviction of a court be ordered to be beat to death by the victims families.
     
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  15. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    I’m sure you would agree that putting innocent people to death is a great harm, yes? Generally when considering taking an action that can and will have very negative consequences we have to be able justify that action with its benefits. So let’s talk about the benefits of capital punishment.

    It acts as a deterrent? No. Studies seem to indicate that states without capital punishment have similar rates of violent crime as those that do.

    It’s cheaper to kill someone than to house them for the rest of their lives? No. A South Dakota study found that legal costs in death penalty cases exceeded those of other cases by an average of $353,105. The legal charges alone were more expensive than the cost of lifetime imprisonment. Add in special accommodations for death row inmates and costs only continue to go up.

    It brings closure to the families of victims? No. Studies seem to indicate that this is not the case for a number of reasons ranging from the increased stress that families are put through when involved in repeated court appearances to provide victims impact statements to simply realizing that the death of one person isn’t going to bring back another.

    They don’t deserve to live? Maybe. How do we empirically measure if a person deserves to live? For something like this all we can do is rely on the feelings of individuals. There are no facts that can be cited here. This is feels over reals.

    It seems the only argument we have for taking an action that can and will cause great harm is the feelings of individuals. Sorry, but that is a weak point for the pros column.
     
  16. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    Why on earth would we want to further traumatize the families of victims by encouraging such a barbaric practice?
     
  17. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    First you guys didn't/don't know what a "woman" is, and now you can't say what it means to have "no doubt" about something?
     
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  18. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

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    They would only be given the chance, not by force
     
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  19. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    Are you going off topic because you have no idea of how to answer the question? How would a legal standard of “No doubt” be codified?
     
  20. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think anyone can beat a person to death without experiencing some form of trauma or PTSD as a result. No good comes from creating more broken humans.
     
  21. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Not all people who have killed get PTSD. And allowing for a conviction like this and airing it live would definitely be a deterrent
     
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  22. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps. I'm still trying to figure out how progressives and democrats are unable to deal with the onslaught of mass shootings that happen in their own enclaves/cities that have super restrictive gun laws already. It isn't like their radical District Attorneys are doing anything to quell that violence. The observation was made that last saturday night, Chicago had more mass shooting deaths than the lefty radical who shot up Buffalo. But they don't seem to actually care about that. Lori Lightfoot continues to ignore those killings in her own city, even though she has demanded the local police protect her and family all the same from it...
     
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  23. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Or we could just encourage the American people to start carrying concealed handguns.
     
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  24. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    There is no data supporting the idea that harsher punishments deter crime.
     
  25. DaveBN

    DaveBN Well-Known Member

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    You’re going to have to explain that one.
     

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