At least 1 dead and 5 wounded in shooting at California church

And the statistic you noted does nothing to reduce the tragedy of deaths from automobiles .

But evidently since it's so convenient to society we deem that as an acceptable loss of life. It really doesn't matter how you get dead because dead is dead.

Stay safe and undead from an automobile

 

Murder should be legalised as the number of murders each year is less than the number killed by a gun each year so clearly murder is not a problem.

What is the total number of man hours a car is driven compared to the number of man hours a gun is in someone's hand? How many automobile deaths were deliberate

 

Fair enough. I haven't seen an answer though. Perhaps you might share it again for comment. It seems counter intuitive that for these states that have significant restrictions in place that if those are insufficient, it surely begs the question of why those would be more effective at the federal level, let alone impact actual crime. I don't expect anyone to answer for all democrats. I expect democrats to be able to defend their failed policy if they can. If they cannot, shouldn't is serve as a decision point to future support for these policies from their representatives?

Be safe, perhaps in doing so, we can all remain "un-shot"...

 

By those standards there's no such thing as a civilized country. What country you live in?

 

You can thank the Leftists for the rising crime. Everything leads back to them.

 

Hi again, drluggit.

As far as that old saw is concerned, it is worth noting that most of our 50 states are bordered by one or more states. These borders are not controlled. There is nothing to prevent the introduction of additional illegal guns into the states with strict gun laws. There are additional reasons, readily available on the 'net.

As far as democrats are concerned, I've already noted that I am not one of their apologists.

I believe this thread has reached its conclusion.

Regards, best wishes to you and yours.

 

Did you have a comment? Other than to grammar check the post?

 

Hi again, drluggit.

I thought the answer you were seeking in your post above, # 53, was about the strict gun laws/high level of gun deaths mantra. My post # 56 contained my response -- my comment -- on that.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your question.

Regards, stay safe 'n sound 'n remember the Big 5.

 

Ok. So the original post that I responded to didn't have a response, so having added this, you have a response to respond to. When you assert an illegality to guns within a jurisdiction, it would be incumbent on you to provide some amount of supporting evidence of your assertion. Was these some evidence of that that you felt should be reviewed here? You suggest that there are other reasons available on the internet, well, sure, there are, are you going to identify these that you might agree with?

Sorry that the thread didn't pan out for you.

 

Hi again, drluggit.

As I stated above, I believe this thread has reached its conclusion.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

Uh, how many of those gun deaths are suicide? Ok, how many deaths are due to being a giant fat ass who grips the fork like it’s a rosary?
Now we’re getting somewhere. When you peel the layers back this isn’t about what causes deaths, it’s about control others wish to have. Like abortion.

 

In my daily comings and goings, I don't worry about bad guys with guns. I worry about SUV drivers. Oh and fwiw, per capita, blacks commit ten times the murders as whites. So stay un-SUV'd and un-blacked.

 

Around 60% are suicide in an average year. My body my choice. If I ever need to euthanize myself a firearm is likely going to be the best option. Don’t be telling me what to do with my body!

I agree it’s about control. It’s easy to control people of unhealthy weight. It’s difficult for the obese to physically protect or provide for themselves thus making them more susceptible to allure of social programs that result in dependency. Also the obese are much easier to manipulate through government/business partnerships involving the healthcare and pharmaceutical industry since obesity requires orders of magnitude more health services.

On the other hand, an armed society is almost impossible to control.

That’s why we see “concern” for the minuscule amount of firearm related death but no concern for the obesity epidemic.

What’s even worse is the infectious nature of obesity. If I own a firearm few will know about it and my owning it does not passively harm anyone. Obesity is quite different. It’s contagious at the pathogenic and social contagion level. That’s why obesity is increasing rapidly and firearm ownership rates have been quite stable.

With media attention etc. there seems to be a social contagion component to violence however, and that’s why we should address the behavior aspect not the inanimate objects. Same with obesity. Address behavior not the fork.

 

Or maybe we can just make it illegal to take a gun and go and shoot someone for no good reason? ...... Oh wait we already have that law. So let's make more laws that criminals will ignore and make more laws that only affect people who follow the law to begin with.

That makes a ton of sense right there...

And dead is dead whether it was deliberate or accidental there's still roughly the same number of death annually. Are you willing to give up your car?

Of course not because we as a society deemed that those deaths are acceptable. The cost of progress and whatnot. But if you got shot with a gun or killed in an automobile I don't think it much matters how you got to the grave you're still in the grave

 

I am in America, but I lived in Vienna (semester abroad) in the 70s.

Back then, the people made half as much money as Americans, and frankly, they lived better lives. They even dressed better. Their food was a lot better.

 

The comments above are problematic for 3 reasons:

1- The first sentence's assumptive reference to homicide and gun killings does not acknowledge that gun related violence does not always cause a homicide but is directly related to the access to and then use of a firearm, i.e., your faulty reference ignores other crimes committed with weapons such as assault with a deadly weapon, suicide, attempted suicide, manslaughter, criminal negligence other kinds of intentional, deliberate, accidental or unintentional injuries and deaths;

2-further to 1 the assumption someone must deliberately use a gun to murder to justify gun control makes no logical sense;

3-. Crimes are not defined by government based on if they will happen or not or how many times they happen for the simple reason that using that reasoning if a criminal law or regulation worked and crimes were prevented then since the crime rate was lowered when it hits a magic number poof the law should disappear ignoring the deterrent effect.

4-Criminal laws are defined based on a society's desired moral code of behaviour which is built in to criminal laws;

5- Your assumption ignores the evidence that proves a direct relation between gun ownership and increased homicide rates, i.e.,

A. Where there are more guns there is more homicide

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

Summary of above: above review of the academic literature found that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries and case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicated that in homes, cities, states and regions in the U.S., where there were more guns, both men and women were re at a higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide

B. in high-income nations, more guns meant more homicide

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

Summary: the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s was reviewed and it was found that across developed countries, where guns were more available, therewere more homicides

C. Across states, more guns = more homicide

i-Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002; 92:1988-1993

Summary: analysis of validated proxies for firearm ownership showed the correlation between firearm availability and increased homicide rates across 50 states over the ten-year period (1988-1997)

ii-Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

Summary: i-states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide and relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty) and please note: there was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide; ii- in every age group those who owned guns had elevated rates of homicide, specifically firearm homicide.

D. Evidence As to the Relation Between Guns and Violent Death

source: Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Firearms and violence death in the United States. In: Webster DW, Vernick JS, eds. Reducing Gun Violence in America. Baltimore MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2013.


Summary: The above text summarized data as to the relationship between gun prevalence (levels of household gun ownership) and suicide, homicide and unintentional firearm death and concluded that where there were higher levels of gun ownership, there were more gun suicides and more total suicides, more gun homicides and more total homicides, and more accidental gun deaths.

E. Where people have higher rates of household gun ownership there are more homicides of police

source: Swedler DI, Simmons MM, Dominici F, Hemenway D. Firearm prevalence and homicides of law enforcement officers in the United States. American Journal of Public Health. 2015; 105:2042-48.

summary: analysis of homicide rates of Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) from 1996 to 2010 showed ifferences in rates of homicides of LEOs across states are best explained not by differences in crime, but by differences in household gun ownership. In high gun states, LEOs were 3 times more likely to be murdered than LEOs working in low-gun states.


6. the above assumptions as are those of by other pro gun colleagues on this thread oblivious to the fact that the United States has the 11th highest rate of gun violence in the world and a gun homicide rate which is 25 times higher than the average respective rates of other high income nations.

source:

Grinshteyn, Erin; Hemenway, David (March 1, 2016). "Violent Death Rates: The US Compared with Other High-income OECD Countries, 2010". The American Journal of Medicine. 129 (3): 266–273. doi:10.1016/j.amjmed.2015.10.025. PMID 26551975 – via www.amjmed.com.

"Gun Violence: Comparing The U.S. With Other Countries". NPR.or

7. the pro gun assmumptions ignore the fact that the United States has a total rate of firearms death which is 50–100 times greater than that of many similarly wealthy nations with strict gun control laws, such as Japan, the United Kingdom, and South Korea.

source: Gun Violence: Comparing The U.S. With Other Countries". NPR.or

8 Pro gun owners ignore numerous f studies that have found a positive correlation between gun ownership and gun-related homicide and suicide rates, i.e.,:

Wintemute, Garen J. (March 18, 2015). "The Epidemiology of Firearm Violence in the Twenty-First Century United States". Annual Review of Public Health. 36 (1): 5–19. doi:10.1146/annurev-publhealth-031914-122535. PMID 25533263.

Cook, Philip J.; Ludwig, Jens (2000). Gun Violence: The Real Costs. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-513793-4. OCLC 45580985.

Morris, Hugh (October 22, 2016). "Mapped: The countries with the most guns (no prizes for guessing #1)". The Telegraph

 

We are on the same page. Should also add that a gun is more likely to be used on a friend or relative that on an intruder. The idea that a gun is good as a defence of a home is nonsense

 

You spent 4 months in Vienna and you're an expert?

 

It's a personal choice to own a gun.

 

Mexico has fewer guns and more homicide.

 

That's a result of our Drug War.

 

Austria has a word, Gemütlichkeit.

It means friendliness, but in Austria it has another meaning. It's roughly 'everybody having a good time'. You might say it's part of their philosophy about life.

 

But they have fewer guns. Why is the murder rate 3x higher?