Is there a right to abortion, and if so, where does the right come from?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Talon, May 6, 2022.

  1. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Your claim: Is Fake News
    Nothing in the decision is based on any of the things your slander of it claims. It's 4 square based on American Constitutional Liberalism and makes no reference to anything else.

    And this isn't a private conversation between us, this is a discussion of public issues on a public board. The part of my post that deals with the inherent violence of leftism is clearly marked off consistent with the TOS and the source link is provided.

    You failed to provide any substantive answer because you have none.

    The 15 weeks of unrestricted abortion under Dobbs is perfectly reasonable, constitutional and more permissive than most of Europe, all of France, and Roe.

    DHS Reportedly Bracing for Violence From the Right and ‘Abortion-Rights Proponents’ if Supreme Court Overturns Roe.

    NARRATORS VOICE: The claim to be 'bracing' for violence from the Right over this is spin. We all know where the political violence comes from, we watched them burn our cities through the summer of 2020.

    "Two weeks ago", Lying Fake News "CNN tried to warn that violence would come from the right if the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, which made absolutely no sense," which is not unusual for the lies and propaganda pushed by the lying fake news that coordinates with some on the Left on political messaging for the benefit of Democrats.

    "Now a memo from the Department of Homeland Security is warning of violence from the left if this actually happens."

    "Law enforcement agencies are investigating social-media threats to burn down or storm the Supreme Court building and murder justices and their clerks, as well as attacks targeting places of worship and abortion clinics."

    Your post starts of a with false smear of the mainstream Constitutional position and have you ANYWHERE made it clear that any Leftwing Violence committed on this issue, attempts to BURN DOWN THE SUPREME COURT and MURDER JUSTICES AND THEIR CLERKS as well as ATTACK PLACES OF WORSHIP is not in your name and that you want any perpetrators of such lawless needs promptly arrested, charged, and held to the fullest account of the law?

    I have to believe that sensible sane Left, exists outside of Joe Manchin, but, we never hear from you, and when we do it's perfunctory, not filled with the passion and outrage that is called for.

    "The unclassified May 13 memo by DHS’ intelligence arm says threats that followed the leak of a draft opinion — targeting Supreme Court Justices, lawmakers and other public officials, as well as clergy and health care providers — “are likely to persist and may increase leading up to and following the issuing of the Court’s official ruling.”"

    What too much of the Left is doing, trying to implement their extremist absolutist agenda through violence, arson, physical attacks is unjust, illegal and unconstitutional. And to date, the just powers of law enforcement have not held them to account for this violence that is now stretching into years.

    Just as Putin's miscalculation is expanding the club of nations in opposition to his lawlessness, so the lawlessness of the Left will form the opposition that will lawfully crush it. The Extremist portion of the Left is in a full speed sprint toward their own disaster and you would be wise to loudly and convincingly distance yourself from it.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
  2. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    The two-thirds of Americans who believe abortion should be legal in the first trimester condone killing people?
     
  3. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Understanding that something should not be a crime is not the same as advocating or condoning it. I don't advocate that men should lie to their wives, but that doesn't mean I think it should be a crime. See how that works?
     
  4. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    He can't comprehend that.
     
  5. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you don't think abortion should be a crime then you're pro-abortion.

    See how that works?
     
  6. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    Except it doesn't work like that.
     
  7. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Person = an individual human being = a fetus = a baby they are not mutually exclusive terms why do you keep claiming they are?
     
  8. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I fully comprehend why cowards hide behind their euphemisms.
     
  9. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's beyond your comprehension.
     
  10. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    So no you can't.
     
  11. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    Nope, yours.
     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    They are not mutually exclusive, but they are also not equivalent. A fetus is not an individual human being until it has attained separate viability. What cannot live separately from a given person is not a separate life from that person's, and a pre-viable fetus is therefore not an individual human being, a person, or a baby. A pre-viable fetus is not a person nor a human being, nor does it have rights, any more than an internal twin does.
     
  13. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    It might begin then in some sense, but that is not enough to have rights, as the phenomenon of internal twins proves. Not separately viable --> not a separate life --> not an individual human being --> no rights.

    For thousands of years, the newborn infant's lusty cry was considered the definitive proof of live birth, and a neonate that could not be induced to breathe on its own was considered stillborn. Heartbeat was and is irrelevant: you can break open a fertilized egg and see a beating heart in the middle of a tracery of blood vessels in the yolk. That's not a chick, sorry. Not separately viable --> not an individual living human being.
     
  14. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    ISTR the DOI has been held legally to form part of the US Constitution.
     
  15. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    A pre-viable fetus is not a separate life, and therefore not an individual person, and therefore has no rights, any more than an internal twin does.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
  16. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Are you for are against abortion? Pro or anti?
     
  17. Hey Now

    Hey Now Well-Known Member

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    There is a right to bodily autonomy, every person period. You framing of the issue is ignoring that right.
     
  18. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No. If that were true, then not thinking that lying to your wife should be a crime would make one pro-lying, which is self-evidently false and absurd.
     
  19. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I think it all comes down to how you see the unborn.

    We weigh rights all the time against each other, and the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute. We have had drafts, mandatory vaccination programs, etc. Your right to freely swing your fist ends at my nose.

    If the unborn is our equal and a person then he/she has a right not to be murdered, to be weighed against the mother's right to bodily autonomy. Arguments can be made either way from there.

    If the unborn is just a mass of cells and not deserving of any such rights, then the mother's rights obviously prevail.

    I dismiss out of hand most concerns over abortion because most are done early in the pregnancy before the unborn develops. I see zero merit in the "life begins at conception" argument for a freshly fertilized egg cell, and I also can't fathom how people can't see a baby just before birth deserves some measure of protection.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
    Talon likes this.
  20. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Of course it is a separate life, completely separate of the mother, an individual human being, a person. The right to life is not created by the government, is not dependent on the Constitution or SCOTUS it is an inherent right with which we are endowed at our CREATION.
     
  21. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    No it you think lying to your wife is ok to do they you are pro-lying to your wife. I've known jerks who certainly believed that.

    If you are not pro-abortion, the practice of abortion as it exist in this country, why not?
     
  22. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, by definition a pre-viable fetus is not a separate life.
    No, by definition a pre-viable fetus is not any of those things.
    No, it is a right we get by being an individual human being, which a pre-viable fetus by definition is not, any more than an internal twin is.
     
  23. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    If the people of any state want abortion to exist as it does today they can vote for representatives who will pass such laws. Why would abortion be less safe in those states?
     
  24. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Thinking something should not be a criminal offence under law is not the same as thinking it is OK. Do you understand that or not?
    Do you think lying to one's wife should be a criminal offence?
    I think abortion is typically a tragedy, but only a crime if the fetus is separately viable, as otherwise there is no victim.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
  25. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    No by biology the life in the womb is kept separate from the mother by the uterus and placenta else the mothers immune response system would kill it. That is the purpose of those organs to keep the to individual human beings separated. And each twin is a separate human being.
     

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