God is not intelligent

Sounds more like the Buddhist perspective. That there is some sort of cause, but you do not ascribe an intelligent persona to it.

I don't see how you could view anything like reincarnation or karma existing without some sort of intelligent force.

 

Of course.

A sentient being, one that thinks, has free will, etc. It has no reference to IQ whatsoever.

Well, 'illogical' isn't the best articulation of the concept, I would say 'mystery' is the better articulation, because I could come back at that with, well. on the flip side, 'there is nothing logical about a Supreme Being', either. That being said...

I will say, to my way to thinking, based on empirical observation, the most logical is my view ( that's why I hold it), but, I temper that 'logic' with the overriding concept that it is a mystery, to be sure. The spiritual force that permeates, and gives rise to, source to, all things is a mystery. It exists, but not in space/time, it precedes, gives rise to, all things. That is pantheistic god, not a personal god. But I see no evidence of a personal God or a supreme being nor it isn't even logical.

I describe intelligence that which inhabits any organism from zero IQ to off the charts, which has free will. It needn't be self aware, but most assume God is a Supreme Being and is definitely self aware. But, in my philosophy, God is not an intelligence, it is like the wind, it is like the ocean, it is just the spiritual ocean from which all living things manifest. The life which arises from this ocean, this spiritual source follows the dictates of science, randomity, natural selection, etc .

 

So what source of intelligence leads to reincarnation? You don't think that could be an entirely natural phenomena, do you?
Are you claiming that's in our cosmic subconscious? That a part of our souls we are not aware of do that?

 

And you would know because... you have magical powers?

This has nothing to do with mysterious phenomena. Explain how it applies.

 

Reminds me of my former Father-in-Law. He was sure the internet was a fad.

 

A permanent hell makes zero sense. I mean, they think I'm going to hell forever just because, in my universe, their religion makes no sense and I don't think I should surrender to some guy who I think was a fool to get killed because he rattled the cages of Romans for spreading the rumor he planned on becoming the king if Israel. Because it makes no sense, I'm not going to believe in 'Christ' as my 'savior' I gotta frolic in a flame filled hole for eternity? I should think after a trillion years, one might forget why one was sent there.

See? It makes no sense. In fact, it's absurd.

 

Both

Why not go to the horse's mouth, The Gospel Of Thomas?

Anyway, I"m into Zen, Taoism, etc.

Once you experience Satori, you don't really need books any more.

Before that experience, I used to read the Tao Te Ching, among others. I've perused many books over the years, and they all basically
say the same thing. Osho's books are very moving. I love Alan Watts, Gurdjieff, to name a few, of late, Sadhguru.

 

Easy. The premise of a 'Supreme Intelligence" makes no sense.


IN the natural world, there is no one of anything in any category, there is no one dog, no one fly, no one rock, and if there is a God, then there are many.

Many Gods would make more sense than one, but both are unreality.

 

Then you really don't understand science.

 

That is anthropomorphic thinking.

 

It leads to reincarnation by the same manner it leads to everything else. Life is what it is. It is the way it is because it cannot be any other way.

All that exists, is natural. Even the abstract, which does not exist in physicality, but in mind, is natural.

Subconscious is a part of the mind.
I'll leave the subconscious for psychologists, psychotherapists and psychiatrists to make claims about.

Your soul is YOU, it does not exist in time and space, it precedes it (well, 'precede' for the lack of an accurate term, of which there are none, nothing that does not exist in time and space can be described or labeled) , there are no 'parts'.

Your mind, which has a conscious and subconscious/unconscious region, is not you.

"Parts" presumes existing in time and space (or in the mind) so your question has a false premise. Your mind has parts, conscious and unconscious, but don't confuse that with the soul, they are separate.

 

Which is a view compatible with pantheist mysticism.

If you look at mankind as an aggregate consciousness, lifting gradually over millennia, it goes through stages. Very much like the need for housing and furniture, to give one comfort against the turbulent world around us. Believing in Gods and/or a God is just a stage, one that still a large part of the world is still going through. Many have gone past it. Stages that fall away are like leaves that die and fall away from a tree. Or, another way to look at it is religion is a cocoon, and like a caterpillar needs the cocoon to develop, but at some pont it must discard the cocoon and sprout it's wings. The mind, also, is like a cocoon. When you reach enlightenment, it will be discarded.

A good place to be. Life is a not problem to be solved, it is a mystery to be lived ( quoting a mystic ).

All good stuff. I like the Tao and Chuang Tzu, but there is something for everyone. For Christian writings, I would prefer the Gospel of Thomas.

 

I don't like the idea of having a religion. i like the idea of being religious. It's a quality.

Some say to meditate, to sit in silence, implying that meditation is something one does.

NO, one does the thing to achieve the quality of meditation. Mediation is a quality, a state of existence.

Then comes the day one no longer needs to sit in silence, one IS meditation in any activity one does.

Some people talk about IQ as if IQ is an important value of some kind.

It is not, wisdom, is the thing, not IQ. If an individual has both intellectual capacity and wisdom, it is a coincidence.

 

I so totally agree. From my late teens, I began asking those hard questions that I never received adequate logical answers to. There's some really elementary imagery that has become an obsession with the Christian myth, the whole concept you mention above about "eternal punishment" is really meaningless. And what about that morbid fascination with blood?

 

Not just blood and drinking blood, how about cannibalism? Eat my body.

Joseph Campbell had a great show on PBS where he explained the origins of myths like the Christ child and the biblical flood. The Christian tradition isn't the first one to use these myths; not by a long shot. They have had many iterations.

 

I have personally found that meditation can be both easy and hard as hell. I liken it to learning how to balance, as you progress, you get better at it, but doing it regularly is my downfall. I once went at it full throttle, Kundalini Meditation as taught by Bruce Joel Rubin. It was intense. And hours plus long meditation was too much for me. I've learned to be happier with 10 minute meditations.

 

And incest! I wonder if this qualifies as the first Penthouse Letter?

Genesis 19:35-37
New King James Version

35 Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day.​

 

Kill disobedient children, is a particularly interesting bit of parenting advice.

That reminds of a friend in college named Rick. His mother would say that when she was pregnant with Rick, she considered having an abortion. And she still is!

 

Deuteronomy 21:18
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear."

Leviticus 20:9 says, “If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.”

Exodus 21:15
“Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Anyone talking this biblical advice would be put in prison if not executed for murder. Was the bible written by psychopaths? Is this the origins of the "Christian tradition"? Kill your children? What a kind, loving religion.

 

God made man. Then man disappointed God. So God got mad. But God is perfect and everything God made is perfect.

Seriously? What a load of nonsense!

 

What I do like is the idea that the universe itself is conscious. After all, we are the universe becoming aware of itself.

 

If karma is the result of an intelligent force, then where did that intelligent force get its ideas of right and wrong? They'd have to be either completely random and unsubstantiated, or they'd have to be based on external factors . . . meaning there is no need for the intelligent force.

 

A truly omniscient God would transcend our conceptualization of "intelligence". Intelligence, I'd argue, is a abstracted measure of how much of the universe of knowledge a person is capable of understanding, an omniscient God understands it all.

Moreover, an omniscient God would not experience time in the same way you and I do, they would experience it all at once. They would have all knowledge of all time.

That said, there is more in common with Eastern and Western philosophy that most people think. Christianity is, at it's heart, a solitary pursuit. "Reincarnation" differences is more semantic, with most Christian sects believing that the soul is persistent, but don't believe the soul needs a body.

I do find it to be a fun intellectual pursuit to consider life as a probablistic outcome to random chemical interactions (roughly the atheistic assertion). If life, and more imortantly human life, exists due to chance, then by deduction, reincarnation must exist, because you would take the probabilty that your life could happen with-in some billions of years, and then you subject that to essentially infinite time.. which would mean that you would be reborn an infinite number of times.

 

Well, billions isn't infinite. And it isn't just about the body. Having a lookalike isn't the same as reincarnation. You are basically redefining what reincarnation means.

Although it did strike me one day when I saw a woman who looked identical to her grandmother: It seems that some faces keep repeating. And in other cases, new faces are made by combining the features of both parents.

I wonder who has the oldest face in existence and how far back it goes. Is there someone today who looks just like Plato, for example?

 

what if after we leave this body we are like mosquito's attracted to the light, the light of life, the life of a tree being born, the life of a flower being born, the life of a baby being born, what if the only way to escape this life death cycle is to learn to find peace with your mind while on earth while in human form, so that when you separate from this body, you can regain control of your consciousness and control your destiny, decide not to enter the light, we always here about entering the light, what if entering the light is the doorway to rebirth? (reincarnation)