Russia Declares War on Ukraine<<MOD WARNING>>

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Bill Carson, Feb 23, 2022.

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  1. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  2. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Banned

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    Hey Jack, may I make a suggestion? Just type "that's a lie" in a different window or word processor so you can copy and paste it here. That's all you do.

    FYI I don't report it, I just laugh at you.
     
  3. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Russian "Firehose of Falsehood" Propaganda Model
    https://www.rand.org › pubs › perspectives


    In addition to manufacturing information, Russian propagandists often manufacture sources. Russian news channels, such as RT and Sputnik News, are more like a ...
     
  4. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    You could always try posting fewer lies.
     
  5. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Banned

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    Must be sad living in a world of delusion

     
  6. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Banned

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    Russia says thanks again for the free weapons

     
  7. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  8. George Bailey

    George Bailey Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. I listened to the first 30 seconds. Hitler was never close to building a coalition against the Soviets. He wanted to, but Churchill wouldn't have any of it. In hindsight, the West should have backed off and let him destroy communism then and there. No holocaust, no cold war etc. I don't think all the Uber and unter talk would have persisted after. He would have had his little parade, died, then the U.S would have developed the bomb first, a new German-Anglo alliance would have been made and the world would be a better place today.
     
  9. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Banned

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    Probably you should listen to the whole thing before revisionist history time.
     
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  10. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    You would know.
     
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  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    To bad for all the other ethnic minorities in Europe given that whole 'master race' thingy NAZI Germany had going on at the time. It was after all a core tenant of the parties political thinking. Even if Germany won your hypothetical war against Stalin what fate do you think awaited every non-aryan inhabitant of this newly established 'greater Reich' after a peace settlement with Russia was achieved?

    And there would be one. Germany didn't have the material strength to conquer and control all of Eastern Europe and then continue eastward past the Urals all the way to Siberia and the Pacific coast. A rump 'Soviet' Russia of some kind would have remained in place, even if Stalin was consigned to history. It might have lasted only for a few decades sandwiched between the Reich to the west and an expansionist Japan to the East before it fell to one or the other (or both) but initially? There would still be a post war 'Russia' in existence.

    So where exactly were all the hundreds of millions of Czechs, Poles & other non-aryan nationals meant to go in your new world order? Russia wouldn't take them. Neither would anyone else, there would simply be too many. And that's not even addressing the question of all the other undesirables, the homosexuals, the physically & mentally handicapped, the political opponents of Nazism in Germany and of course, let we forget the Jews? What nirvana awaited all those people once the war was over and NAZI Germany controlled all of Eastern Europe do you think?
     
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  12. Silver Surfer

    Silver Surfer Banned

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    Labour camps - Arbeit mach frei, especially if you work for nothing, immigration to the USA....etc.....How about this scenario. If Germany hadn"t attacked the USSR and decided to honour the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, what would the world look like? Would the Germans still rule Europe?
     
  13. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    As I said, post war and once civil authority had been fully imposed there would simply be far to many 'non-Aryans' to remove via emigration. Not going to happen, to few many people to move, to few willing takers. As for the second bit? also not going to happen. Prior to the start of Barbarossa both Germany and Russia were re-arming as fast as they possibly could and neither country was ruled by men whose egos would let them pay 'second fiddle' to anyone else, not int he long term anyway. One or other nation would have broken the pact within a few years regardless.

    Beyond that? Germany didn't have the naval power required to defeat Britain (support an invasion) and Britain, prior to the entry of America into the war didn't have sufficient military support to invade the continent. Result? a prolonged stalemate. Even if hostilities were officially ended by treaty sometime after 1940 Europe would still have ended up divided between three major powers, two of whom (the UK and Russia) being intrinsically hostile to the third (Germany). Such a result would have only delayed the inevitable.
     
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  14. Silver Surfer

    Silver Surfer Banned

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    Disagree. The Germans would've had eventually defeated Britain. Britain was on its knees. If the Germans hadn't opened the eastern front and deployed all those resources, the whole of western Europe ( the UK included ) would be under German control. The EU official language would be German, not English or French. There was very little resistence in the western Europe during the German occupation.
     
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  15. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    And how exactly does Germany cross the English Channel? Operation Sea Lion failed for a reason and that reason was 12 something miles of sea water that Germany couldn't march across. Fast forward 4 years to 1944 and the allied invasion of Europe succeed precisely because the US and Britain had obtained permanent dominance of the air and sea approaches to the continent.

    Germany didn't have that in 1941. In fact it had dominance in only one of three arms - land forces (and it lost that the moment it decided to proceed with Barbarossa). The Luftwaffe and the RAF fought each other to a standstill in the skies over the channel and the British surpassed the German navy in the Atlantic and the channel both qualitatively and quantitatively to a huge degree. It wasn't even a contest (on the surface), not it terms of trying to support an invasion anyway. The only aspect of naval warfare where Germany had an advantage was in submarines which, while threatening in the longer term doesn't assist you in crossing the channel.
     
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  16. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As an aside to this, computer simulations suggest that Britain would have lost the air war if the Lufwaffe was allowed to continue pummelling the English air force ON THE GROUND. But Hitler's decision to begin a bombing campaign did Germany a grave disservice.
     
  17. Silver Surfer

    Silver Surfer Banned

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    That's not factual. As a matter of fact the British Army was literally non existent and incapable of defending the country. Withdrawal from Dunkirk came at the cost. They left behind 2,300 artillery pieces, 500 anti-tank guns, and 64,000 other vehicles. Over a half of the entire British Army's inventory. Britain was there for taking and the Germans simply made a strategic mistake which eventually cost them dearly.

    Exposed: How Close Nazi Germany Came to Invading Britain (And the One Thing That Stopped Them)

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...i-germany-came-invading-britain-the-one-18160

    ...Nor was the Royal Navy necessarily a powerful invasion-deterrent. “Of all the misconceptions about Seeloewe, the ability and willingness of the Royal Navy to defeat an invasion attempt are often the most egregious,” according to Forczyk.

    As the Germans’ self-imposed late-September 1940 invasion deadline loomed, just five of the British fleet’s 14 capital ships were in home waters. “Furthermore, Adm. Sir Charles Forbes, commander of the Home Fleet, was very wary of risking his capital ships in the English Channel where they could be bombed by the Luftwaffe and was content to rely primarily on destroyers and light craft, supported by a few cruisers, to oppose any invasion.”

    “Forbes said that as long as the RAF was undefeated, the primary defense against invasion should be left to them and the army.”

    London ultimately compelled Forbes to add a single old battleship to the anti-invasion fleet, but the big ship would need hours to reach the fighting. The Royal Navy’s plan, in the event the German troop barges set sail, was to send 40 destroyers and four cruisers — split into two groups — to hit the barges from east and west.

    But the British ships would have to endure air attacks and survive minefields before finally making contact — at night — with the four dispersed and heavily-armed invasion flotillas the Germans had planned. While the Royal Navy’s submarines might fare better, the surface fleet’s chances of defeating an invasion on its own were tenuous.


    “The navy can lose us the war,” Forczyk quotes British prime minister Winston Churchill as saying.


    Nor, of course, was the army ready to resist a German landing in the half-year after Dunkirk. “Unfortunately, the British Army in September 1940 was little more than a ‘cardboard force’ that was not capable of sustained ground combat against a veteran and well-trained opponent.”

    Lacking in heavy weaponry and motor transport, the British Army was also stuck with an outdated operational concept that was like something straight out of World War I. It still practiced trench warfare.


    Worse, the doomed intervention in France had gotten so many junior officers killed that, in late 1940, many small units lacked appropriate leaders. As a consequence, they weren’t likely to improvise new tactics as the Germans stormed the beaches.


    So if the RAF’s fighting prowess didn’t matter, the Royal Navy’s own anti-invasion plans were too timid and the British Army was too shell-shocked to resist, exactly what — in Forczyk’s estimation — prevented the Nazis from conquering the British Isles?


    The simple answer is the Soviet Union. Hitler indefinitely postponed Operation Sealion in order to devote more resources to his crazy, lifelong ambition to invade the USSR. The Eastern Front would eventually consume millions of German lives and ultimately prove to be Hitler’s downfall.

    The more complex answer, according to Forczyk, is that Hitler put the invasion on hold because, organizationally speaking, postponement was easier for him than forcing the bickering chiefs of the German army, navy and air force to work together on a single operation as complex as an amphibious landing.

    “By tolerating these personal agendas, Hitler threw away any hope of achieving decisive results in regard to England.”

    The United States entered the war in December 1941 following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. With the Soviets and the Americans backing them, by 1942 the British were no longer alone, outgunned and outnumbered.
     
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  18. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Leaves out of account the power of leadership.
    ". . . Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour'. . . . " --Winston Churchill

    Zelensky has provided a reminder of that power.
     
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  19. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  20. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  21. George Bailey

    George Bailey Well-Known Member

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    Hitlers decision not to go with Sealion was a mistake to many in the general staff. Still, the Soviets could have been defeated had Hitler listened to his staff. The decision not to go full force and take Moscow first was a big mistake. I have studied the rail systems and it is true. See Manstein "Lost Victories."
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  23. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    A great book.
     
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  24. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  25. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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