Abortion ban amendment shot down in Kansas doesn't bode well for Repubss

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Aug 3, 2022.

  1. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    That's fine, but abortion isn't murder. A woman has the right to not be pregnant and not bear children.

    They're not going to cede control over their reproduction to the government.
     
  2. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Nope, the Court acted correctly in overturning Roe v. Wade.
     
  3. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    You hold a very extreme view, which is fine, but simply understand that most do not agree with that view.

    In the view of most, and this will vary from State to State, "majorities oppose abortion being generally legal in the second (55%) or third (71%) trimester, while they broadly favor it being legal in the first trimester."

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx

    You support a position that 71% oppose.
     
  4. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes. Getting along does not require government interference. The war on drugs is a good example of how using government to force ones beliefs on others makes things worse. Handing gangsters and violent criminals a monopoly over recreational drugs has not made us any safer. The reason people will fight has nothing to do with what is best for society; it is because of the massive profits derived from these laws and the political power this profit helps maintain.

    The same way drug users never had a problem getting drugs, criminals and gang members will always have guns. Gun laws only provide them with easy victims. Gun control turns irrational fear into votes.

    Abortion laws cannot be enforced and have no benefit to society. It brings in the evangelical vote.

    Its all about power and we are meant to fight among each other so politicians can enjoy access to the tax dollars.
     
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  5. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Preserve choice for 20 weeks
     
  6. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    ???? Every state has "Abortion laws" that have been successfully enforced. The state having authority over Dr. licenses makes it easy and effective.
     
  7. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, your right to freedom of religion is specifically enumerated in the first article of our Bill of Rights, so I'm afraid your suggestion would probably get laughed out of any serious forum you suggested it in. It is, after all, the basis for the very founding of this Republic.
    Well, of course, your right to keep and bear arms is specifically enumerated in the second article of our Bill of Rights. It shall not be infringed.
    You certainly can. But beware! Our system of government swings like a pendulum, left and right, over time. This swinging tends to keep us on a more or less straight track, and is a good thing, on par. What one side does to stack the deck while they are in power, the other side will do to level it when their turn comes around. Your turn looks like it may be coming to an end shortly.
    They might, if they decide to take it up and ultimately deem it unconstitutional. I doubt it will ever be brought to them because almost everyone is against PBA, regardless of political affiliation.
    They might not have ruled it out, but any such law would have to pass Constitutional muster to be able to stand, which it probably wouldn't.
    No law can be made prohibiting your free exercise of religion, and your right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, as per articles 1 and 2 of our Bill of Rights. Your authoritarian nirvana will only ever exist in your own imagination.
    This, we can probably agree on: The choice, now, belongs to The People. Kansas, a red state, made their voices heard most recently. This should send sharp notice to other prohibition states.
     
  8. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The first two sentences above are contradictory. I was going to ask you to support your assertion in the first sentence, but you shot it down yourself in the second. :p

    I can tell you this: I live on a farm in a rural area of North Carolina, and I have lots of staunchly republican acquaintances. I also regularly travel, on business, to one of the most liberal urban areas of the country; Chapel Hill, NC, where I work along side of some of the most dedicated democrats. I also regularly do volunteer work in a rescue mission in Durham, NC, where I see some of the most religious people there are, as well as some of the poorest homeless people. I would estimate something like 90% of all the people I have ever had the abortion conversation with was pro-choice. It's anecdotal, I know. But my experience is that the vast majority, regardless of political affiliation, want women to be able to make the choice without government meddling.
    On this we must disagree. It was unconstitutional, for 50 years, and was finally corrected. I predict that what comes of its overturning will end up to be better than before, for everyone involved.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022
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  9. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Nothing is being "slaughtered."
     
  10. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    That's your view and you are free to hold it, but, the vast majority of Americans do not agree with you, and I expect that the majority of the State Legislatures will not either, and since you don't live in a US state, well, there's that.
     
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  11. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Abortion is the intentional killing of human life. It's slaughter, it's murder on an industrial scale.
     
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  12. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    We'll see how long society puts up with religious folks' intolerance. You ignore a woman's right to control her body, so why should we protect your right to get together with other religious people who are acting to deny women their rights?
    If you join a state militia, you can have a gun.
    I never got a turn.
    Not the Five Ideologues, anyway.
    You can't build a church anywhere you want. Maybe they'll zone you out of business.
    I was speculating about how you're rights might be ignored.
    No, I reject laws banning abortion. I wouldn't help anyone enforce them.
     
  13. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Your evidence a majority of Americans think abortion is "slaughter?" You just make up stuff, so I suspect you have none.
    So, the majority of state legislatures think abortion is "slaughter?"
    Oregon.
     
  14. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    I think it's going to be tough for you to accept women having control over their lives.
     
  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Conservatives.....?



     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  16. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Nope, women certainly have control over their own lives...we all do. The trick is to understand there are consequences to what we choose to do, and we're expected to control our basest jnstincts, i.e. not kill others for our own convenience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
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  17. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You can always tell when someone does not have a merit worthy counter argument.
     
  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Vaccine mandates aren't really force. Coercion, perhaps, but for it to be force it would have to be illegal to refuse a vaccination. The only time I support vaccine mandates are during pandemics and regionally for endemics. I'm against school mandates. Banning abortion is forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term against her will, therefore, false equivalency.

    Guns have nothing to do with bodily autonomy.

    Higher taxes have nothing to do with bodily autonomy.

    My counter argument stands.
     
  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    http://politicalforum.com/index.php...amendment-vote.602431/page-16#post-1073639753

    I disagree that R v W was made in err. It may have not been perfect, perhaps would have been stronger incorporated into a broader argument inclusive of other amendments, but it stood for a long time, upheld in numerous subsequent rulings spanning 50 years.

    I'm reminded of the old adage ,'if it's not broke, don't fix it', and for 50 years, Roe served America well, women, more or less, depending on the state, had access to abortion. In short, Roe worked. There was no inherent reason to repeal Roe other than to fulfill the promise made by hard right ideologues in the Federalist Society who chose the latest three justices for Trump. Personally, given Trump's history of waffling on issues, picking parties which suits his particular need at the moment, I doubt Trump cares at all about abortion. In fact, he was pro choice before he became a Republican, which he only did when he finally threw his hat into the ring, because he recognized that in order to win the hearts of republicans, he'd have to promise picking justices, when given the chance, who would repeal Roe. He made good on that promise. Never, not once, did Trump ever speak of, hint at, make the argument of why Roe had to be repealed, he only promised what he knew his new base wanted to here.

    Again, I reiterate, no moderate conservative court would have repealed Roe, evidence of which is the fact that Chief Justice Roberts, himself, tried, though in vain, to get the other justices to uphold stare decisis. Alas, they didn't, and thus it is safe to presume that it is the Roberts court, and not the Burger court, that erred. I think proof that the court has erred is the chaos that it has caused, to wit:

    Doctors are denying critical care in emergency cases because of fears of being prosecuted. The Dobbs decision has thrown American in chaos in many emergency rooms across America:

    https://news.yahoo.com/confusion-post-roe-spurs-delays-143021096.html

    A woman with a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy sought emergency care at the University of Michigan Hospital after a doctor in her home state worried that the presence of a fetal heartbeat meant treating her might run afoul of new restrictions on abortion.

    At one Kansas City, Mo., hospital, administrators temporarily required "pharmacist approval" before dispensing medications used to stop postpartum hemorrhages, because they can also be also used for abortions.

    And in Wisconsin, a woman bled for more than 10 days from an incomplete miscarriage after emergency room staff would not remove the fetal tissue amid a confusing legal landscape that has roiled obstetric care.



    So, Dems and moderates alike will see you at the ballot box at the midterms. We shall see what the electorate thinks about the court decision.
     
  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, I didn't.

    I indicated that of the estimated 20% that voted to shoot down the Kansas amendment to include antiabortion in the state's constitution, it's not known what percentage of those are actually pro choice, most may be or probably are just moderates who do not want an absolute ban in the state's constitution. In the first sentence, I presumed that only a small faction of Republicans are pro choice, which may, or may not equal the estimated 20% that were Republicans. But all of these numbers are estimates, anyway.

    There is no contradiction in those two sentences.
    If True, that's good to know. However, amongst elected officials, it most certainly is not true.
    Let's clarify one important fact. What is, or isn't 'constitutional' is whatever the court says it is. Therefore, for over 50 years it was constitutional, it was voted 7-2 mostly by conservative justices, upheld in numerous cases by justices spanning 50 years, and, with the ultra conservative court as selected by the Federalist society, against the desire of Chief Justice Roberts, all of the sudden, the court ignores precedent and decides it is not constitutional.
    Oh, really? So banning abortion in some 26 red states (most of which are likely given Republican control of state legislatures), a number of whom are threatening doctors with prosecution, is better?

    I think not. In fact, it's caused chaos.

    https://news.yahoo.com/confusion-post-roe-spurs-delays-143021096.html

    A woman with a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy sought emergency care at the University of Michigan Hospital after a doctor in her home state worried that the presence of a fetal heartbeat meant treating her might run afoul of new restrictions on abortion.

    At one Kansas City, Mo., hospital, administrators temporarily required "pharmacist approval" before dispensing medications used to stop postpartum hemorrhages, because they can also be also used for abortions.

    And in Wisconsin, a woman bled for more than 10 days from an incomplete miscarriage after emergency room staff would not remove the fetal tissue amid a confusing legal landscape that has roiled obstetric care.
     
  21. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe a woman has a right to effective self-defense?
     
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  22. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    You're manufacturing consequences for women by trying to stop them from accessing the means to end an unwanted pregnancy.
     
  23. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    IOW, as Ruth Ginsburg pointed out, the Roe decision was bad law and reversing it represents progress for the democratic process.
     
  24. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Americans can "press for" anything they choose.
     
  25. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Roe v. Wade should have affirmed women's rights and rejected any law banning abortion. The Constitution should provide equal protection for women.
     

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