Hmmm....a teacher shortage crisis

Then why don't you?

 

Yeh, I know you said that. Why are you telling me? Tell the guy who attributed it to me! This place is bizarre! Can’t you guys figure out how to communicate without a go-between?

Ask a McDonalds fry guy and Pfizer’s CEO the same question and you will get very different answers. But north of $200K looks pretty good to the average salaried worker at $56K.

Your unsubstantiated opinion is noted. But it’s a strawman anyway. Neither I or the OP have interest in your interjections. It’s your baby strawman and it’s bald and ugly. I don’t want to hold it!

Then they should join the parents in criticism of CRT and vow to avoid it at all costs. Problem solved. No more criticism. Everyone wins!

LOL. Unfortunately your opinion is not correct. Better go back and read what I’ve posted and the evidence I’ve presented.

 

It may be your chief concern, but it isn't mine.

On that we agree. You're a Trump rightwinger.

Now, that's just plain dumb.

We're talking about teachers' associations and teachers' unions. Associations don't bargain collective agreements and are much weaker than unions.

Your point is what?

What business is it of yours if teachers want to belong to unions so they can bargain with their employers?

Boring. Too bad you're not as smart as you think you are.

I'm not into identity politics or socialism. Give it a rest.

Marx was a terrible economist and incompetent historian.

I would never live in the U.S. South because the climate six months of the year isn't to my liking. (Guess which six months and why.)

You think U.S. teachers' unions are commies?

Workers have every right to organize and attempt to bargain collectively. (I wouldn't force employers to bargain with them. But I wouldn't make secondary boycotts illegal or have right-to-work laws.)

Stupid comment.

No, they aren't.

I think the national organizers may be Marxists (are the same people still there?). I reject their politics and organizing principles.

 

Okay. Why are you telling me and why should I care if you read the curriculum or review course materials?

No, I'm not.

I told you the AP courses emphasize critical thinking and I gave you the link so you could assess their program.

So you say.

Why?

In another forum, I went through the challenges of implementing a voucher system that would replace public schools with a retired education researcher. There's a lot more to it than you might think, but in the end he agreed we should poleax government-run schools. It can be done, I believe, with better results than we're getting from either regular public or charter schools.

In all honesty, I'm afraid of ideologues getting hold of a voucher system and screwing it up.

 

Then you shouldn’t have engaged me in conversation on the subject.

Thank you for acknowledging I have facts and you have unsubstantiated opinions.

But you are incorrect on the Trump/right winger part. I’ve never voted for or advocated for a Trump presidency. I’m on record all over PF in that regard. Also, I’m one of two practicing socialists on PF so I’m far from right wing.

That’s an appeal to the stone fallacy.

Yes I know. And any association can collectively bargain. There is NO difference under Federal or CA state law. Association can choose to strike or not. It’s dependent on what kind of memorandum of understanding contract they operate under. And they CHOOSE that contract themselves.

The point is in California, any association or group of two or more people (teachers, etc.) can collectively bargain and strike legally under US and state law no matter whether they call themselves a union, an employee association, or Garfield’s Fan Club.

I don’t care if people want to subvert market wage discovery by bargaining under groups called unions, employee associations, or Garfield’s Fan Club.

I present verifiable facts. You provide unsubstantiated opinions. I may be smarter than you and I may not be. That’s irrelevant. What matters is I substantiate my claims and you don’t. Then you resort to fallacious arguments.

Sure. That’s why you just incorrectly stereotyped me as a Trump supporter. But thanks for admitting you don’t know much about Marx even though you criticize him and have worked 30 years towards similar goals.

There you go with appeal to stone fallacy again!

So why are you quoting statistics from Florida but not CA?

Quote me saying so! I said you worked towards the same goal as Marx—disrupting market driven wage discovery.

Of course they have the right. Any TWO individual teachers in CA have the right to collectively bargain and strike under any organizational name they choose. All neat and legal under US and state law.

Appeal to the stone fallacy—again. Probably a record for one PF post.

Yes they are. Marxism (especially modern Marxism), BLM, and CRT are all built on a foundation of intersectionality.

So why did they intentionally advocate for manipulation of the nuclear family for political/economic reasons just like Marx, and only remove the admission when it was criticized? Coincidence I suppose.

 

Very few school administrators make $200,000 a year. For the most part, you're talking about school board office administrators in districts with many thousands of students.

Nasty, nasty.

People practicing your politics of destruction should never "win" anything. Schools have not been teaching CRT, it isn't part of state curriculums, and the study guides in the 1619 Project ask questions way over the head of just about everyone but the more advanced high school students. In short, they're not useful learning materials for teachers and they're not used, either.

You told whoppers about teachers and expect them to play nice. No way. They don't preach Marxism, nor do they tell white kids they should be ashamed of being white.

You're trying to undermine the community process of creating curriculum. The fact is you're trying to negate the efforts of a wide range of parents, teachers, university departments, and community groups.

Who appointed you God?

 

LOL, you ask why teachers don't flock to Ca where CRT is welcomed. But it would not be to teach about it. LOL.

 

Providing links and saying the information supporting your position is in the links violates PF rules. Here is your initial response in it’s entirety.

You posted links alone. Here is your ENTIRE response again.

You’ve never provided pull quotes or even page numbers etc. to substantiate your claims. It’s your responsibility to represent your links properly in the context of your argument.

Did you attend college?

Because that’s the amount the locality has democratically determined is the proper amount needed to provide an adequate education.

No need to replace or pole axe government schools. Just let a more free market exist without a de facto government enforced monopoly with only one narrow alternative—(Based on economic class by the way since you are a fan of Marx and disproportionately affecting certain demographics based on intersectionality). LOL

Screw it up how? By pro alternative models you don’t like?

 

I clearly initially stated it would be a move to avoid criticism others are saying is hurting teacher’s feelings. Please read what I say so you can avoid making fallacious arguments in the future.

Also, I’ve clearly stated if teachers have no interest in teaching CRT they should join those parents etc. against it in solidarity. Problem solved.

If you accuse someone of making a specific comment on PF you need to back it up with the quote function. Quoting something different from your claim of what I said and creating a strawman out of it is poor argument.

People who have been taught (or self taught) to think critically do not use strawman fallacy as the core of their arguments.

Go ahead and use PF quote function to show I’ve posted what you claim or we will be forced to accept your concession.

 

OMG. You want to collectivize production?

The California Teachers Association is a union.

Okay. I doubt anyone much cares about your approval.

Uh huh.

So, why mention it?

You have no idea what we did with the union. BTW, we have a Baptist university in town that supplies many of the district's staff. They're good Christians and good colleagues.

Why not?

Marx probably agreed with me that food is necessary for life. That I want teachers to bargain collectively with an all-powerful employer doesn't make me a Marxist.

I didn't "teach" (preach) CRT or subscribe to the belief racism is by design built into the system. I didn't tell white kids they should be ashamed of being white. I ran political action for the teachers' union and community groups (I was the chair of one) that defeated schemes to put a $2b, two square mile garbage dump in our community. I never used the undisciplined tactics of BLM or spout Marxist BS.

As for your Marxism... collective production won't work because it always, always fails to allocate capital properly.

Why should I care what BLM does? They're ineffective, IMO, and no threat.

 

Do you see ANYTHING in this post claiming how many administrators are high earners?

It is a FACT there is big money in administration. And it’s a PATH to it just like I said.

I didn’t call your post stupid!

Politics of destruction? Because I would like to see teachers with a little ability to deal with criticism?

Every claim I’ve made is true and substantiated. I have never claimed teachers preach Marxism nor that they tell white kids to be ashamed of themselves. Those are your strawmen.

Quote me saying any district should or should not teach ANY curriculum! Go ahead!

Does this quote sound like I want to dictate curriculum?

Hopefully nobody. If they did I’m unaware. I HAVE NOT attempted to influence anyone’s curriculum. That’s a fact Jack. Your credibility in this thread is toast.

 

You asked for examples of critical thinking and my answer was a response. That was the context.

Yeah, and I got an "A" in Logic.

You're assuming collective production is as efficient as private production.

Let government schools compete, no subsidy.

Systems do best when they have work through a market. Of course, that's not possible or called for in some cases.

 

My school district has more than 2,000 teachers, 150 admin, and only the Secretary-Treasurer and Superintendent make more than $200,000.

Ho hum. Something else you don't know much about.

Yes. You support unprincipled attacks of teachers.

It's not about YOU. It's about unprincipled attacks on teachers about CRT and the claim they're telling white kids they should be ashamed of being white.

 

More fallacy—with emojis. Cool.

No. I CLEARLY said socialist, not collectivist. Holy cow. Just out of curiosity, where did you get your education?

Yes, I suppose it annoys you that I continue to point out your posts are unsubstantiated opinion while mine are based on verifiable evidence. I point it out in hopes you will attempt to post to your potential. You are a smart guy who can do better than endless fallacy and unsubstantiated opinions.

Of course. That’s why I clearly stated some unions refer to themselves as associations!

Not my approval. Approval from the Federal government and state government in codified law. LOL

We agree I supply verifiable facts and you supply unsubstantiated opinions. Thanks for admitting that.

I didn’t bring intelligence into the conversation. You did with this statement which I responded to.

What matters is my posts are based on evidence while yours are unsubstantiated opinions.

So you are part of the reason unionized teachers don’t make enough salary? Wow. You didn’t attempt to interfere with the free market wage determination between employer and employee?

It’s cool you like Baptists. But I see no relevance to our discussion. Why would it matter if “your” University is Baptist or Methodist? Or Catholic?

I just find it curious you follow FL so closely.

Didn’t say it made you a Marxist. I said you worked toward similar goals.

Good for you. If you don’t like Marxism you shouldn’t teach it.

I don’t find much value in Marxism. I agree collectivism stinks.

I agree collectivism fails. That’s why I have no interest in it. All I care about is worker ownership and control of as much production as possible. A good way to avoid the sucking black hole of union dues.

Nobody should have to care about BLM. If they want people to care they should appeal to a wider demographic.

 

Yet the term or concept doesn’t appear at all in one link and the other you have to search through pages and pages of irrelevant text to find any reference to critical thought. Your job is to direct to relevant information in your links.

Uh huh. Because they graded on the curve and your bad logic was better than classmates with no logic. Kidding of course. But I’m not seeing much critical thought from you in this discussion. Critical thought excludes fallacy in argument, and all you have so far is fallacy. I was just curious if it’s a product of your education or a failing of your education.

Of course not. I simply stated school funding is decided democratically through representation at the local level. That had NOTHING to do with collectivism.

And collective production is almost NEVER as efficient as private production. We should have learned that from the Pilgrims.

Where would they get their funding? Their funding is 100% subsidy.

Absolutely market is best. It’s always possible, it’s just sometimes authoritarian types don’t like the outcomes.

 

As I said. There is a path to big money by moving into administration. $200K is more than $45K the teachers are probably making. Thanks for confirming I was correct.

If I didn’t know much about it I wouldn’t have made the correct claim there is money to be made by moving from teaching positions to administration. You confirmed my assertion above. Thanks.

Of course not. I’ve simply pointed out if a teacher can’t handle such criticism they aren’t fit to handle bullying in the classroom.

If it’s not about me why do you keep falsely accusing me of saying teachers are teaching Marxism or that teachers are telling white kids they should feel shame when I’ve said neither?

My point that teachers who can’t handle criticism don’t belong in the teaching profession isn’t an attack. I don’t think cops who can’t accept the risk of taking a bullet to the chest or a fist to the teeth don’t belong on a force either. Firemen who have a panic attack when their vision is obscured don’t belong on a fire department. Saying so isn’t an attack on any profession or individual. It’s just stating facts.

 

Thank you...

It's no wonder that there's a teacher shortage today especially in subjects that require lots of "overtime" reading and grading of lengthy essays such as English, History and Social Studies.

Before I was certified to teach but after I worked in the Juvenile Justice system, I frequently taught or attempted to teach emotionally disturbed students (aka Special Ed.) in the inner-city school system as a substitute teacher. It seemed like only about 5% of the students wanted to learn while the rest were more interested in demonstrating their skills as entertainers.

I think that the mistake that many new teachers make, especially in Special Ed., is thinking that they can reach students whose lives outside the school are chaotic. They tend to burn out early because they don't seem to realize that a few hours in school is not going to offset what is frequently a violent and tumultuous home life.
With the Special Ed. kids, I felt that I was lucky if I could reach 3 - 5 students out of 30.

 

You identify as a socialist and don't believe in collectivist production.

There is no free market for public school teachers.

Beam me up, Scotty. Nothing here.

 

Nothing here.

 

Two thousand teachers and only TWO school district employees make $200K?

 

My time as a Case Worker in the Juvenile Justice system was very helpful before attempting to teach Special Ed. students because as a Case Worker you get to know about the students' home life, support system, parental involvement etc.

I actually preferred being a Case Worker over teaching Special Ed. because as a C.W. you became more deeply involved in all aspects of their lives. I would chose some of older, tougher boys to meet with a select group of prison inmates, take another group of kids to the State Fair, take yet a different group camping when all they'd known was life in run down, inner-city neighborhoods etc.
Additionally, I would meet with troubled family members of the kids on my case load, their teachers and even their doctors.

Unfortunately, the families of the kids on my case load had the attitude that their child was somehow "broken" and it was up to the Juvenile Justice system to "fix" them.
When you get so deeply involved in the life of someone else's teenage child there is the opportunity to be a positive influence which can be tremendously rewarding but when you invest so much of your time and effort, burn-out is almost inevitable and that's what made me briefly turn to teaching.

Unfortunately, teaching Special Ed. was not enough of a change from the stress of being a Case Worker so that's why I took up blacksmithing.

Thanks,

 

I don’t “identify” as a socialist, I practice socialism—voluntarily. Socialism must be voluntary or it is an exercise in futility. Few have the desire to undertake the personal responsibility it requires. And if you try and force the necessary responsibility it self destructs quickly. Just like collective production.

Collectivism is only one branch of socialism. True collectivism was a product of Fabian socialists in England.

Generically though, collectivism describes the difference between individual and groups (collectives). Socialism at its core only concerns itself with ownership/control of production—worker vs. non worker (capital).

There are many branches of socialism. You like Baptists so I’ll use them as an example. There are mainlines and evangelicals. There are Southern Baptists. Progressive National Baptists.

Same with socialism. Just like all Baptists don’t follow the ideas of the Westboro Baptist Church, not all socialists are collectivists. But then most people think socialism is redistribution of wealth created through capitalism, so I can understand your confusion.

Because I’m not a collectivist and live in a capitalist society, I do interact quite a lot with capitalism. But most of the entities I do “business” with are worker owned and/or democratically worker controlled. As I say, I’m one of two people on PF who actually LIVE a socialist lifestyle. But NOT a collectivist lifestyle!

You post emojis and I will continue to point out your posts contain only unsubstantiated opinions.

Wage discovery through markets exists for public school teachers—until it’s subverted by a union or other collective bargaining entities.

What doesn’t exist because of public schools is a free market environment for educational options. It’s subverted by taxpayer funding exclusively for government schools.

You are still here. Scotty can’t hear you.

As I said, there is a path to big money by transitioning out of teaching into administration. Thanks for confirming that fact again.

Or are you saying teachers could never have what it takes to move into those positions?