Let's put this myth to rest once and for all: The Republican Party is NOT the "pro-life" party.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Golem, Sep 19, 2022.

  1. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Nice? No. Honest. You can be downright mean and still be honest. And you aren't even speaking to their position or themselves if you create strawmen to beat up instead.

    If you want to take them on, why not actually take them on? Especially those who say "life begins at conception" and hold the ridiculous view that a mere fertilized cell is a baby. That's crazy and we should say so.

    A view you project onto them that isn't actually their view. That's where you go off the rails.

    No it doesn't mean that. You keep insisting it does and you are wrong. Taking responsibility for your actions is not necessarily "punishment". Punishment implies you did something wrong.

    There is nothing wrong with having sex, but it does carry with it some responsibility, such as men who father children having to raise them or pay child support. You don't support deadbeat dads, right? Do you call paying child support "punishment for having sex"?

    Again, I already addressed that. You either didn't read it or are ignoring it so I don't know what else to say to you. You have concocted a strawman that makes it easier for you to hate people. That's all this is. You aren't understanding what they are actually thinking.

    The vast majority of them don't want punishment. A select few (Trump being one) do want punishment but not for having sex. For murdering an innocent person. If you see abortion as outright murder that makes some sense, though a self defence and bodily autonomy argument also makes sense which most weigh as valid excuse.

    They all see it as homicide. Murder is culpable homicide. Not all homicide is culpable. There are valid excuses such as self defence, war, etc.

    She decided to kill someone (as they see it). If that deserves punishment varies from circumstance to circumstance and on who is judging.

    You and I don't see it as homicide at all, so we don't have to make that moral judgment and its easier for us.

    What I respect is honest good faith discussion without making up false motives to attribute to the other side. Bluesguy, though I oppose his actual position on abortion, wasn't wrong when he noted you had made no argument other than to project false motives. That's exactly what you did. And it doesn't help.

    Except that you don't. You are not debating the actual issue if you are not addressing what the other side actually says and thinks. When you substitute in strawmen you are no longer debating others. You are debating yourself at that point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
  2. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Very few stated moral issues are the actual motivations behind politicians. If that ever happens at all, it is very very rare, on any end of the political spectrum for mainstream politicians.

    The driving motive here is power, and the Republican leaders took this issue and pretend to care about it because it gets them votes from those who actually do care, full stop. Democrat party politicians aren't so different. You have a half wit vice president right now because of her race and gender because Biden thought it would play well for votes.

    That's only hypocrisy if you take "pro life" to mean generalized and in all cases regardless of context. Is it hypocrisy when "pro-choice" people support regulations that restrict choice in other contexts? Of course not. It's referring to this particular choice. And pro-life refers to these particular lives.

    And again, don't expect consistentcy in politicians. They say what they say because they seek power. Full stop.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
  3. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Because they don't really give a flying **** about the unborn embryo or the living children, they just want to punish somebody, isn't that obvious?
    There is a certain type of person who just delights in causing pain to people for any reason or no reason at all. The condemnation of the "transgression" is just an excuse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
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  4. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    A copper IUD along with one of the hormonal medications and it can be entirely avoided up to about 99.99999999% how about that.

    Should our entire policy concerning abortion be based on rape? THAT is the question and the argument Fresh and Fox always turn too.
     
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  5. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    And we should be nice to Pro-Abortioners because they have their reasons for wanting to kill babies denying them their rights?
     
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  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ok, what about what I asked?

    Like HeadStart?

    Some say the best way to help children is by having the government as parent.
    Some say the best way to help children is by having the parent as the parent.

    I say the latter how about you?
     
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  7. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    "Do YOU want to make an exception in the case of rape or incest????

    Or force rape victims to be punished by having their rapist's kid?"

    and

    "

    New
    FoxHastings said:
    UH, what is "reasonably" and who TF decides what is reasonable if not the one having the abortion?

    What "mile"... what does that mean ?


    I'm sure you don't....unless you are one...( referring to not caring about RAPE victims)

    No, it isn't and saying so shows great confusion"

    and


    kazenatsu said:
    "Well, they are a very small percentage of the total number of abortions. That might not make them "rare", but they are still definitely not the normal abortion."

    You said
    "HOW are abortions due to rape different from abortions due to consensual sex?

    There is NO difference, the procedure and outcome are the same."

    Just to show a few.
     
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  8. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    I say it should be decided on a case by case basis.
     
  9. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    In general...........

    Some say the best way to help children is by having the government as parent.
    Some say the best way to help children is by having the parent as the parent.

    And these programs you claim help children but Republicans want to cancel........................like HeadStart?
     
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  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    AGAIN A "MISREPRESETATION" ( I can't use the correct accurate word in here)


    I have NEVER based my policy on abortion on rape....and poster cannot prove I did....


    Just another Anti-Choicer who has to invent things to have any point at all..
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    WHERE TF did I say in that rape is a justification for abortion. ?????????????????????????
    NOWHERE

    I didn't....just an Anti-Choicers imagination ( or lack of comprehension) of the written word...

    LOL, are you not aware that other posters can see what you wrote??
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
  12. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You bring it up repeatedly in defense of abortion on demand as I gave just a few examples, just a pro-abortioner who has to deny their own post as I cited.

    Even in this one #542

     
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  13. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    False comparison. You can have many choices. And you can be in favor of some, and against others. There is only ONE possible interpretation for "pro-life". If you are against abortion because you believe life should never be violated, then you would need to be consistent.

    If you're not, you can say you oppose abortion for whatever reason. NOT because you are "pro-life"

    If "pro-life" simply means "anti abortion", you haven't explained WHY you are anti-abortion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
  14. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    That seems to be an odd projection on your part. You can be "pro-life" regarding a particular context and regarding particular lives, just as you can be "pro-choice" regarding a particular context and regarding particular choices.

    They are pro-life-of-the-innocent-unborn. Shorter to say "pro-life".
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
  15. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is not about me, or you. It's about the Republican Party claims to be the "Pro-life Party". Read the OP!!!!

    If it's as you say, then WHY does the Republican Party oppose abortion?
    You can be pro some choices and against others. If "some" lives are disposable, why is the Party against abortion?

    The Republican Party is for saving the life of a non-sentient embryo that is no more than a group of cells. But they are ok with children who are born with medical conditions to die because they can't afford treatment.

    Given this FACT, what does the idiom "pro-life" mean in the Republican Party?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
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  16. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    You just said it. They are pro some lives and not others. Just as you are pro some choices and not others. It isn't all that complicated.
     
  17. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Good post but you will never get answers to those "inconvenient " questions like """ ...., then WHY does the Republican Party oppose abortion?"""

    and """""If "some" lives are disposable, why is the Party against abortion?"" .... the BIG Hypocrisy of the Anti-Choicers who make exception for abortion in the case of rape.
     
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  18. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    It isn't complicated.

    The Party includes many different people. I already explained why many members are pro-life, and they vote Republican because that's the party that supports their cause. The Republican leaders support it because it wins them votes.

    Because those aren't the disposable lives, at least not absent some competing concern that supercedes.

    Because that's a conflicting competing concern that supercedes. That's not the gotcha you think it is.

    Your better strategy is to point at starving kids the Republicans don't want to help. And even then, not all pro-life people oppose helping starving kids.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Good post but you will never get answers to those "inconvenient " questions like """ ...., then WHY does the Republican Party oppose abortion?"""
    LOL, yes, I really knew it had nothing to do with " MURDERING BABIES!!"



    and """""If "some" lives are disposable, why is the Party against abortion?""

    I am talking about the abortions performed on rape victims....SOME Anti-Choicers think those "lives" are disposable.....and can NEVER answer WHY.

    .... the BIG Hypocrisy of the Anti-Choicers who make exception for abortion in the case of rape....and STILL that's unaddressed in the desperate attempt to make Anti-Choicers appear somewhat reasonable ...LOLOLOLOL


    I determine my strategy even if it's so INCONVENIENT for Anti-Choicers :) that they try to misdirect the issue ;) ;)


    ....
     
  20. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    You apparently don't read what you respond to. I just told you why. They have another competing concern that they think supercedes. That doesn't mean they don't actually care about the life being sacrificed.

    Sure. Of course you do. And it's irrational and full of straw men. Doesn't mean you can't have it.

    At least you stopped barking in enlarged bolded coloured text. That's progress.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, you made another excuse for Anti-Choicers


    :) Yup, what I said, two-faced hypocrites...


    Translation: " You stumped me again""


    LOL, so bolding and large print are difficult for you? Or just another excuse ?

    You apparently don't read what you respond to...or need to redirect any criticism of your pals the Anti-Choicers
     
  22. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Ok. So do you never have competing concerns in your mind and sacrifice one for the other? Why do you not allow that for these folks? You claimed that they ONLY care about PUNISHMENT for HAVING SEX. You've backed up none of this claimed mind reading whatsoever. And we can simply ask them and try to actually understand where they are coming from, what they think, why they think it, and then actually have constructive conversation.

    Unlike you, I do read and respond to what people actually write, and I don't try to project thoughts or motivations onto you that you may not actually hold. Unlike you, I don't declare you on any particular side or holding any particular view that you don't explicitly state.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  23. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't think they're pro ANY lives. They are just anti women having sex for any reason other than to procreate. So those who do, and the fruit of their "sin" must be punished.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
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  24. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I can see you projecting that onto them. I don't doubt that you believe it. And you may be correct about a few of them. But I don't buy that you read minds as well as you think you do.
     
  25. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Only the Republican Party can be THIS inconsistent and its followers not even notice. It's the reason why Trump could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot a random person and not lose any votes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
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