Sorry Liberals, But The Nazis Were Progressive Leftists

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by XXJefferson#51, Sep 25, 2022.

  1. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
    I suspect that calling nazism "socialist" is an effort to discredit socialism.
    There will always have to be a centralised state to provide for what individuals cannot. Individuals cannot get to the moon.
    Again, the definition of the two idéologies is what thee government does with funds and social issues. Not whether it is a central co-ordinator.
     
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  2. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask you a question.

    Let’s assume for a moment that you were head of a collectivist society.

    You believe that for the collective to survive it must have full production from all of the farmland in your country. The only way you can sustain the entire collective is if that farmland is in full use of its capacity.

    Now the farmers who own that land have been selling their goods for years to sustain their families and buy what they want and needed. Now you tell them their produce must now go to the collective and the government will make sure the farmers are taken care of as well.

    Well those farmers don’t like that and they refuse.

    What do you do?
     
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  3. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    But Mao was a tyrannical dictator. Not a Fascist or Socialist or even are genuine Communist. What's your point? That tRaitor tRump like Hitler, Stalin and even Mao and Mussolini want's to be an Autocratic Dictator like them? That he panders to a base of FAR RIGHT MILITIAS, Proud Boy's, 3 Per-centers, Oath Keepers, Boogaloo Bois,Q Anon, Light Foot Militia ... on and on (dozens) ALL EXTREME RIGHT WING MILITANT ANARCHISTS that are actively working to undermine American Government BY the People and replace it with a DICTATORSHIP, of tRaitor tRump, that they believe will support their White Supremacist beliefs.

    TRaitor tRump is banking on the FAR RIGHT MILITIA'S VIOLENCE to get back in power and NEVER have to relinquish it again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  4. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    It's an easily refutable falsehood. He outlawed organized labor. He outlawed the socialist party. He rose to power DEBATING AGAINST the socialist leaders of the Nazi party, ON THE TOPIC OF SOCIALISM. One of those socialist leaders left the party and published an article specifically about socialists leaving the party. Hitler had one of the socialist leaders murdered and another exiled. Hitler argued IN FAVOR OF PRIVATIZING MORE INDUSTRY.
     
  5. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    They vote on it.
    Have you forgotten the fascist principle of a single uncontested leader?
    That does not exist in a socialist community where a collective take a COLLECTIVE decision.b
     
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  6. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Hitler was OK about private ownership of industry as long as it worked for the state. That way the state relied onn patriots and fear and didn't have to run the companies.
    Follow the history of Thyssen Krupp

    • 1940: A rearmament policy is introduced by the Nazis in the mid-1930s and with the outbreak of war, labor is conscripted and supplemented by foreign workers, slave laborers, and prisoners of war.
    • WIKI.
     
  7. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.
     
  8. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Kind of like reverse discrimination not existing?
     
  9. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Tell me a socialist without telling me you're a socialist.
     
  10. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    No they disagreed on the TYPE of socialism
     
  11. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    And Hitler couldn't even articulate how his "type" was even actually socialism. He was more aggressive about privatizing industry (the opposite of socialism) than even western capitalist countries were at the time. When pushed on how he was still a socialist, he'd often say things like, "Well I eat the same meals as my driver" or "Socialism is just shorthand for whatever is good for Germans." He was never able to articulate how his positions had anything to do with socialism. His knee-jerk reaction when he was going after that ACTUAL socialists in his party was just to call them Marxists (they weren't) and run away.

    Marxism focused on CLASS struggle and envisioned a future post-State world. The socialists in the Nazi party (before Hitler got rid of them) focused on RACE and NATIONAL struggles as being above CLASS struggles and had NO DESIRE to get rid of the State.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  12. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Mao did none of that. Mao was all about the people. He wound up starving them in his great leap backwards trying to help them. He, unlike Hitler and Stalin (and yes Trump), was more ideologue than egomaniac.
     
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  13. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    Again. That is irrelevant. And it’s irrelevant two-fold.

    It’s irrelevant because he still believed in the collectivist ideals. Whether you want to claim that as socialist or not is irrelevant.

    Second: it’s irrelevant because He USED socialism because he knew it was the easiest path to tyrannical dictatorship. That’s the ENTIRE point. The socialist or collectivist ideology provides fertile breeding grounds for people like Hitler and Stalin and Mao to take power.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  14. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    This is true.

    Hitler took over a socialist party but then took it far far away from socialism.

    If anything about socialism can be criticized here it's that socialism is attractive to the people and can be a way to get traction before hijacking things and taking them in other directions.
     
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  15. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    Which is the entire point. It’s much easier for a tyrant to take control and cement his power in a socialist or collectivist ideology.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  16. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    The only “that” is Mao was a tyrant and dictator; which he was.
     
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  17. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    But the other point is that you are simply using the words "collectivist" and "socialist" interchangeably . . . incorrectly. You can be a collectivist without being a socialist and you can be a socialist without being a collectivist.
     
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  18. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    Hitler and Mussolini betray that lie.
     
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  19. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. You can be a collectivist without being a socialist. But you CANNOT be a socialist without being a collectivist.
     
  20. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Then one of those two terms is one that you don't comprehend, because there are tons of outright anarchist socialists.
     
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  21. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    Yes but we aren’t talking about a small scale. We are talking about hundreds of millions of people.

    And no if you had no government people would still have private property they would just defend it and enforce it themselves.
     
  22. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so without government, without the State, how do you determine where one person's property ends and another begins? Have fun being the first person in existence to figure that out. But thank you for conceding that there are, indeed, anarchist socialists and that not all socialists are collectivists.
     
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  23. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a feature of socialism which is an economic theory.
    This is a function of DEMOCRACY , a political theory.
    One does not define the orher.
    Voting for socialism does not automatically imply government overreach. There are dozens of social democracies all over the world.
     
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  24. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Anarchic chaos.
    Nice.
     
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  25. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Look.
    Once and for all please distinguish between an economic ideology and a political ideology

    You constantly conflate the two, assuming that socialism discounts democracy.
    And would you please actually address what others say instead of ignoring them and immediately flinging another "argument".
    You said collectivity does not work. I asked you how then does a boy scout cookout work. I could ask you how any project that requires many voices and skills actually works.
    I told you fascism includes a single director where socialism does not.
    I could also include the racist element of fascism that does not occur in socialism. I told you that nazism used all the industry for the state and not for the people.
    You have ignored all of those and gone off into another direction.
    Now you are confusing economic and political dimension.
    This is an impossible way to discuss such things...not least because you are not listening, just scattergunning your opinion.
    Socialism is about redistribution for the good of the greatest number .
    Fascism is about absorbing benefits for the good of the state. Which is controlled by an unelected small group of people and ultimately, one person.
    I cannot understand your aversion to communal effort, to provision for a general need ( ie transport, water, space exploration) . Do you not come together to achieve certain goals that you cannot achieve individually?
    Do you not help those who need help?
    Do you think each of us living in a guarded bunker is the best way to spend your life?
    Or that sooner or later one or two in there won't start to assert control?
    Read Lord of the Flies.
     
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