The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Sep 29, 2022.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Here we go again, this trope has been floundering around the right wing echo chamber for some time now, and now Trump has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.

    *Republic, Not A Democracy.

    I'm sorry to report to you republicans, but "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", these are NOT mutually exclusive terms.


    To wit:

    ...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

    When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy, thus. only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

    There are all types of Republics, there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with.

    America is a Constitutional Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AkA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America". I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it.

    It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

    Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism.

    America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in AMerica, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for verious state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......

    bull.jpg

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...mocracy-is-even-more-dangerous-than-it-sounds

    Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.

    Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.


    BINGO!
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  2. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    Appropriate you included the BS meter. You should really fill in some of the stuff surrounding your Hamilton quote. BTW.
    You also convienently over look the federalist design with each state viewed as an individual entity; sending representatives to Washington to deal with affairs and concerns of the union as a whole, while leaving each state the authority do deal with "everything else", including voting for the President as a member of the Electoral College.

    Overall I'd give your essay a B- in 11th grade AP Civics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  3. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so it wasn't necessary. And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    'Democracy' exists in varying degrees (unless we're referring to a full democracy where 51% decide literally everything, which doesn't exist anywhere and probably never has). The argument that 'we're not a democracy because we have a constitution' is either disingenuous or ignorant because all democracies have been limited in some capacity. However, its just as disingenuous/ignorant when people suggest our constitution and its prescribed procedures are 'a threat to democracy'. Its as if they think (or want others to think) we are supposed to be the mythical full democracy where 51% decide literally everything, in which case they would logically have to also believe we are not a democracy now nor ever have been, and if that were the case, then the constitution is only a 'threat' to us becoming a full democracy. Which it absolutely is, and for good reason... full democracy is indistinguishable from full communism- both lead to us having committee debates over everything down to the authorized usage of communal underwear, and no society can remain functional with that level of hypercollectivization.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  5. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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  6. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    Or more likely it weakens your point. I'm also sure you know the FF didn't agree fully on the structure of the government they were designing; some favored a strong central government; others worried about the potential of mob rule, etc. But thanks for mentioning it - I'll have to add The Federalist Papers to my reading list - it's been a few years.
    Yeah, nice try.
     
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  7. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I know of no Democrat or liberal who is suggesting a government where the electorate votes on all legislation. To even pin it on democrats or liberals is a straw man
     
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  8. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thats true. But can you point out any part of the constitution that there isn't a vocal opinion to replace with a vote, a committee or special emergency powers to regulate over instead of simply 'the law'? Sure, no one claims to 'want to vote on everything', but there's sure a hell of a lot of people who all want to vote on different things that are currently simply set in the constitution. If they all got their way, we would effectively be voting on everything...
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  9. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    Nah, they dream of a benevolent oligarchy where the governments makes all the choices without the bother of elections.
     
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  10. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    The United States is a constitutional federal republic..... While you can argue how much democracy that means you cannot deny that that is the system of government that this nation is set up under.
     
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  11. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    The US is not a democracy or a republic, it's a federation of States. That's why they were called the federalist papers. And why it's called the federal government.
     
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  12. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    The States are called States for a reason. They entered into a voluntary compact with the other States under the auspices of a federalized system. At any time, the States can amend the constitution, dissolve the compact, and reclaim all the powers they delegated to the federal government. And they absolutely should do that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  13. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    That makes no sense. Please explain.

    You'll have to give me a specific example or examples. 'Everything', in the context you have used it, is a weasel word, and weasel words are incoherent. 'Different things' and 'everything' are logically inconsistent, despite the 'effectively' qualifier. But, these, apparently, are predicated on your 'vocal opinion to replace with a vote' statement, which is not a coherent thought, or, at the minimum, you'll have to clarify, specifically, what you mean. It makes no sense to me. However, it does feel as if you have a point, whatever it might be, it's just that you haven't articulated it very well. I'm a stickler for precise language and I abhor mushy prose.



    weaselwords.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    The US is a democracy, a republic, and a constitutionally aligned federal government over a consortium of federally unified but independent states. It's also a big group of people unified under a common theme of which about 25 to 35 per cent are idiots, an unfortunate fact of nature.

    It's a lot of things in public discourse, none of which are legal edicts, but accurate descriptive prose.

    So, excuse my descriptive prose, but cut the crap.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
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  15. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh, but no one is denying that it's a constitutionally aligned federal republic. But don't you deny that it's a democracy, either.

    As I stated in another comment...

    The US is a democracy, a republic, and a constitutionally aligned federal government over a consortium of federally unified but independent states. It's also a big group of people unified under a common theme of which about 25 to 35 per cent are idiots, an unfortunate fact of nature.

    It's a lot of things in public discourse, none of which are legal edicts, but accurate descriptive prose.
     
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  16. nopartisanbull

    nopartisanbull Well-Known Member

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    The U.S., like any other democratic nation is a pros and cons democracy, however, it is certainly democratic for the simple fact that the opposite of democracy is dictatorship.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
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  17. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    They voted all the time in Saddam's Iraq they keep voting for Putin in Russia and Democrats in California. Never mind that none of the above ever give a damn about the will if the people or whether or not the place is going to hell in a hand basket.
     
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  18. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    The US is a federation. You can bloviate all day, but the fact remains.
     
  19. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    Why would any small state agree to that? In fact why would any state not named California, texas or New York vote for that?
     
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  20. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Cherry picking history does not fool anyone.
     
  21. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    A republic is any system that does not have a monarch.
    It really is that simple.
     
  22. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    who put anything up for a vote? I just made a comment.
     
  23. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    inadequate rebuttal: lazy response does not refute arguments offered.
     
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  24. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A true democracy would be everyone voting on everything. Every decision, every bill. That takes TIME. This is why we elect officials to do this. If we had the same system and for some reason there were no republicans and democrats were running it all, it still would NOT be a democracy.
     
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  25. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was always taught that we are a democratically elected Constitutional Republic.

    As you have pointed out, varying descriptions of our government are not mutually exclusive, thus there are several different descriptions that can all be labeled as accurate. However one chooses to describe our government, virtually everyone knows our actual system of government. This is not some highly guarded secret. If you want to get as technical as to point out that we are not a direct democracy, or to perhaps point out that we are a Constitutional Republic etc, one can do so and still be 100% correct.

    I would imagine that some people may be tempted to get that technical when another points to the mythical popular vote as if that is somehow supposed to elect a President.by virtue of us being a democracy. In that situation, pointing to us being a constitutional Republic is pointing to the reality that our constitution proscribes that the electoral college rather than the mythical popular vote is what determines who wins the presidency, despite the reality that our leaders are elected via the democratic process.

    In truth, this is all one big pointless argument. In whatever manner that one wants to argue that the president should be elected via a popular vote, the bottom line is that it goes against our system of governance. If you want to describe that as our constitution proscibing the electoral college, or that being a Republic not everything is determined via a popular vote of the people as in a direct democracy, one can do that and still be entirely correct.

    The bottom line is "who cares"? To call this much ado about NOTHING is an understatement. You are acting as if this debate somehow is an existential threat to the existence of our government and that is about as silly as it gets. At best, this argument is one of semantics. Just because you choose to describe our government with one term that by your own admission is not mutually exclusive from another term, does not make you intelligent and the other person STUPID as you like to say so frequently. It only means that you are choosing to use different terms to describe the exact same thing. If you want to argue that the Electoral College is anti-democracy you can try, but the reality is, that the electoral college is how our presidents are determined according to the laws of this country.

    If you ask me, the only thing STUPID involved here is the argument itself and the accompanying phony outrage. Who cares? Call it a republic. Call it a democracy. Call it a constitutional democratic republic. They all mean the same friggen thing and are not mutually exclusive. Everyone knows our system of government. Stop acting as if our country's survival depends upon what it is called.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022

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