ARE WE ENTITLED TO AN HONORABLE CONGRESS?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by spiritgide, Dec 4, 2022.

  1. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I like what you're saying, if a bit nebulous. The hard part, then, will be to be able to defeat the tribalism we see today. The instinct to take a side, then blindly support it, and blindly oppose any other viewpoints is inherent in the politics of today. I have said on this forum, many times, that the political class must use their power and their propaganda outlets to actively and purposefully work to keep The People divided against themselves... because they know if they don't, The People can and will unite against THEM.

    But, again, finding people of character who are willing to put themselves and their families forward to endure the onslaught of the established status quo will be difficult or impossible. Who, in their right mind, would subject themselves to what happens to people who dare challenge the establishment today? But doing so is essential to keeping our republic, so we must.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2022
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  2. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    History would bear you out, of course. But then- look at the things that happen everyday that are unlikely, and know that it's not impossible.
     
  3. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And you are speaking to the difficulty of the challenge, which I assure you we have waded through more times than I can count.
    The answer has proved to be far less difficult than we ever imagined. We, like everybody, focused of the mountain of issues we confront everywhere.
    Took a long time to realize that a common cause was behind most all of it. No need to treat the symptoms if you can cure the disease.
     
  4. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Don't get overly involved in specific definitions. Deception is dishonesty. Makes little difference how you achieve it.
    While I see a great many problems with the maturity and strength of people, I still think that if the ballot listed "Honest" and "Dishonest" as options, honest would win.
    The people are voting for a promise of performance. The elected party is responsible to deliver that performance.
    If you were hired as a loan manager with a two-year contract, but they found out you were making illicit loans to imaginary people for your own benefit- would it be reasonable to fire you? Or should they say- well, we hired him, so it's our fault and we have to live with it.....

    People make mistakes. They also have the moral right to correct those mistakes.
    The project I'm part of is not about educating the public so they don't make mistakes... it's about correcting the mistakes they make- and that does not take place at the next election.
    Can be done. Plan to show you how, soon.
     
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  5. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you see the picture fairly well. The right answer- makes most of that moot, it has no leverage against this project. NO legitimate excuse to not accept it. Of course many will be contrived, but none have sound footing. For example, an answer to many challenges will be- "What part of the rules you wrote and swore to uphold do you think shouldn't apply to you?" Because that is how this works., The rules we need already exist. Imagine a baseball game where the same rules exist, but there are no umpires, and all the calls are made by the players. That's congress. Rules not enforced are no longer rules, and the order rules create is replaced by chaos. Chaos in leadership becomes the precedent, the role model for followers- and the same level of chaos cascades to them. Symptoms of the disease...
     
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  6. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    That is your first mistake. The more accurate you are with your words, the better orator you are. Mistakes do happen, but when it is constantly being repeated, then you have to question whether it was a mistake or intentional. Or is that too specific for you?

    People vote based on groupthink, nothing more, nothing less. If Jesus Christ was running as a Dem, I can guarantee you that 95% of conservative religious evangelicals will be voting against that person. It is because of the letter behind the name, not the name or person themselves. And you see this all the time in politics.

    That is why you need to go after the voting populace rather than the politicians. To put it another way, the politician is only as good or bad as the people who elected them into office. If you elect a person with overt racist viewpoints, then you can expect racist legislation to come out. If you elect someone who is constantly making up conspiracy theories in everything, then the legislation they propose will be based on those conspiracy theories. And that is why we have this conundrum with our elections despite being the most secure in history. Does not mean there are hiccups, but it does mean that these groups overemphasize the hiccups into one major conspiracy as we see DJT starting now. And even though he literally said to terminate all rules, and regulations, including the ones in the Constitution, you have die hard conservatives who refuse to acknowledge that reality no matter what, calling it "fake news" despite what Trump literally said,
     
  7. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, if you truly have found a lawful and Constitutional solution to what I feel is insurmountable deep-rooted corruption in government, then you have my full support, for whatever that's worth. I'm intrigued to know more, and how I can help.

    It is, however, my nature to be cynical and skeptical of everything, so forgive me if I come across that way. When I see our elected representatives on TV, pounding the podium giving fiery speeches about obvious and egregious corruption and wrongdoing, and vowing to bring justice.... I am skeptical.... because I see them do that over and again, and nothing ever comes of it. It just fades off into the distance, drowned out by whatever is next on the propaganda rotation. They are directly in positions where they can absolutely effect some change, or at least cause some transparency to come forth, but they never seem to. No honor. What hope do every-day working class folks like me have to be able to effect change, if the people we have charged with that task cannot or will not?
     
  8. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are defending the status quo, rather than considering the existence of options.
    In trying to get around that attitude, sometimes we have to use a variety of examples. searching for one that the person we are trying to communicate with will see and can actually realize how it applies to their own life.

    DJT has nothing to do with this today. He understood a lot of the problems, but not the solutions, and of course became the target of total obstructions. I doubt at this point that he can become a viable candidate, and likely not make it past primaries.

    There are certain critical points to making changes of this level. The biggest is the challenge of cohesive support, common ground, united interests. If you can't do that, you don't have any shot at all. We've always understood this, and still do. We also think we have the way to acquire it. Groupthink, if you will- is nothing more than common interest. Reasons for being in a particular place may vary- but if enough people are, the power is there. Part of the challenge.
     
  9. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Trump being the quintessential example.
     
  10. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I fully understand skepticism, I'm definitely a skeptic. Given the nature of what this challenge is, your view is well founded. Taken many years to arrive at where we are at. While the people in our group have varied, it has included an aero-electrical engineer with the best mind I've ever known; a constitutional lawyer, expertise in the reasoning and logic disciplines of critical thinking, order of magnitude, root cause analysis and psychology, entrepreneurs and a professor of political sciences. Mostly older people, some dead now as we have worked on this many years. I have no doubt we've missed a few things, but also confident they won't defeat the objective. This like the Achilles heel story- there is a key point which changes the entire game, and that is what we believe we have. Been wrong before, anything's possible.

    The concept is not to immediately resolve all issues- it's to create the environment that makes it possible and the course to be so set, one that removes the primary barriers. In many things I've learned that the answers are often easy- but the pile of trash you have to fight through to find them is like a mountain. Some people are stubborn enough to stay the course; I'm one of those.. Nothing like this has ever been presented or attempted before, yet it should have been obvious. When we are ready to go public, which we want to do simultaneously through many venues, it will be on this forum first thing. Website is in final stages of loading. Social media, news, we will be in as many places as we can with it. But in the end, it depends on the people; nobody can do this alone. We strike a match, light a fire- and hope it catches on and goes viral.
     
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  11. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump is not without character flaw. There are some really bad characteristics he brings to the party and forces on everyone. However, the basics he brought in 2016; outsider with no political ties, doesn't owe anyone anything, America first, eager and willing to call out corruption and "drain the swamp", secure the border, economy first, no long-term political aspirations, etc... those are the things we need again.

    Of course, if the Democrats did nothing else during Trump's term, they sent a loud-and-clear message to ANYONE who dares seek political office from the private sector: "Don't!". Given the choice between a loudmouth billionaire with no filter blurting out whatever pops into his head but throwing monkey wrenches into the establishment machine, and a sharp looking dimwit in a $5000 suit that's never had a real job but can read a focus-group tested speech off a teleprompter and toe the party line like he's told, they'd rather have the latter, when what the country needs is the former.

    I truly hope the OP's vision to bring honor back to governance is not just pipe dream.
     
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  12. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    God's speed to you, sir. I wish you every success in this endeavor.

    It would be the best thing I could imagine to see the travesty that has become our government be transformed into an honorable institution. I do, absolutely, believe we are entitled to it. But I don't believe they will come around willingly.
     
  13. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your last point calls for a comment. If this works, the working environment in congress will be dramatically better. Most members know the congress can't function as they are, and that their approval rate is miserable, that the tile of being "the honorable" is fraud. Many would very much like to work in a better environment- and at the same time, know that unless everybody plays it that way, none can play it that way.
    If this is in place- they will, and won't have the choice to do otherwise. We've been aware of the many forms of objections and resistance all along, those are not ignored.
    Another aspect of this is that an honorable congress would attract a much higher number of exceptional candidates. The best people are smart enough to avoid the kind of mess that exists today.
     
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  14. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How do you deal with graft? I saw a meme today that mentioned how members of Congress somehow all manage to become multi-millionaires on a $170k salary during their time in Congress. And, they do.

    We all know the best way to give your pal $10 million is to give him a no-show bit part in a $10 billion project. And the best way to put $1 million in the family coffers is to have your pal reserve 10% for "the big guy".

    Do you think acting with honor will overcome that taxpayer expensed gravy train?
     
  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so you don't really care about getting rid of the liars in Congress and those that supported liars like Trump?
     
  16. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While few seem to be aware of it, there are rules dealing with such things- rules written by congress which apply to congress. Enforcement is like- not existent.
    There is more than one that addresses this specifically- also ignored, same reason. This concept will change that.
    The condition we need to deal with is acting outside of honor. Without exception.
     
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  17. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I thought perhaps you actually read what was said. Did you respond to the wrong post, or what?
     
  18. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    ARE WE ENTITLED TO AN HONORABLE CONGRESS?

    Not if we continue to elect dishonorable people.
     
  19. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you hire a master plumber who turns out to be a serial killer and wipes out your family- Well, you hired him. Don't blame him for the choice you made. it's your fault.....
    That is what you're saying isn't it?
     
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I thought you read what was said, did you quote the wrong post?
     
  21. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, I suspect the problem is, it's not illegal for you to hire your pal for a bit part in a huge taxpayer funded project. And, it's not illegal for your pal to gift you 10% of his salary, if he wants to. It IS illegal for you to directly take a million taxpayer dollars and buy a yacht with it. But if you go through the right process, you can still get that million dollar yacht, and pay for it with the same taxpayer dollars, without worry of breaking the rules.

    It is, of course, entirely possible to act outside of honor without breaking any rules. And, I suspect there can be some instances where the honorable thing to do is break the rules. In order for your plan to succeed, acting with honor needs to be the most profitable* (*not just monetarily), and least painful, path for the actor.
     
  22. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    We do get to vote for term limits. It's simply not voting for the incumbent. Then the incumbent loses and is term limited.
    Nah, I voted 3rd party more than not for pres.
    I don't do that a state and local levels though.
    If there were 20 or so independents then independents would get more power.
    But every member of congress gets to vote so they all have power.
     
  23. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I agree.... Having a decent and honorable Congress would be the right thing for them to do
     
  24. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wait and take a look. The applicable rules here aren't all laws- and the people with the power to make the call won't be politicians.
     
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  25. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The performance of politicians is the fault of the voters. Plumbers are not political when they kill your family. I think I might support lie detector tests for political candidates.
     

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